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Thread: Joy's E-Type - maybe enneagram isn't total bullshit?

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    Default Joy's E-Type - maybe enneagram isn't total bullshit?

    Apparently peter's a 1w9 and I'm a 3w4. Hmmmmmmm...
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    it's not total bullshit. Not bullshit at all. Those 18 types are easily observed if a person goes out into the world. It becomes bullshit when it's dug into too deep and given application where it isn't capable of being applied. It needs to be taken at face value, and can't be used to explain a person's every action. Socionics gives us a false hope of being able to do this.
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    How about astrology then? Your personality being defined by when you were born?

    From what I understand these are both ancient ways of grouping people together.
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

    "When my time comes, forget the wrong that I've done.
    Help me leave behind some reasons to be missed."

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    I don't believe in astrology. I'm not a great fan of enneagram either, since it reminds me of astrology.
    Intuition

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    Not so sure about Enneagram. As long as people are free to pick which aspect they are, it's fine by me. If your type were determined by something you had no say in, such as your name, or your birthday, or both combined, then I would think it was a load of BS.
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

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    Neither of us had looked into what our types were for a long time, and both of us had taken tests with strange results. Last night we took this test together, both answering the questions for both of us. It's interesting how taking tests like that with someone who knows you well can change the answers to some of the questions. Anyways, those are what our scores turned out to be.

    This description fits me quite well, but I very much disliked it in the past because it makes it sound like you care too much about what other people think. I can see though how someone from the outside looking in who doesn't understand me might make that mistake though. The rest of the description is perfect.

    This description fits Peter perfectly. He doesn't like to think of himself as being that uptight, but he is.

    The relationship description sounds exaggerated and cold, but I can definitely see how someone from the outside looking in could see us that way.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    I take it back... after reading some other descriptions of 3's, there is no possible way I could be one. Yes, I act like a 3, but my motivation is more that of an 8. I do not relate to the motivations of a 3 at all.
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    i don't think enneagram is bullshit at all, nor do i think it has the slightest to do with astrology.


    as a general rule, its conclusions are probably less sound than those of socionics, which is a much deeper theory. nonetheless, enneagram is the only typology where i find absolutely no question as to my type (except the variant, which could be either sp/so or sp/sx; neither so nor sx really makes much sense at all).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I take it back... after reading some other descriptions of 3's, there is no possible way I could be one. Yes, I act like a 3, but my motivation is more that of an 8. I do not relate to the motivations of a 3 at all.
    I guess it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that *I* decide what success is, but I use my interactions with others to decide how well I'm doing towards achieving that success.
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    please don't take this the wrong way...
    but this is one of the reasons I have issues with the enneagram...(and the issue is budding for me into other personality typing systems as well)...
    that a person can always find a way to justify a listed trait.
    it falls under the human ability to find patterns where there may not even be any

    that's not to say that i don't think a type description could perfectly fit a person,
    at least...in certain situations/interactions
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    I always disliked enneagram because none of the types ever seemed to fit me. I always seemed like... a little bit of 5 different types.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    please don't take this the wrong way...
    but this is one of the reasons I have issues with the enneagram...(and the issue is budding for me into other personality typing systems as well)...
    that a person can always find a way to justify a listed trait.
    it falls under the human ability to find patterns where there may not even be any

    that's not to say that i don't think a type description could perfectly fit a person,
    at least...in certain situations/interactions
    ah, yes, the forer effect. and why exactly do you find enneagram to be more susceptible to this than other typologies?

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    I cannot see Joy as an 8. 6w7 might be a better option, but definitely sx/sp or sp/sx either way.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    please don't take this the wrong way...
    but this is one of the reasons I have issues with the enneagram...(and the issue is budding for me into other personality typing systems as well)...
    that a person can always find a way to justify a listed trait.
    it falls under the human ability to find patterns where there may not even be any

    that's not to say that i don't think a type description could perfectly fit a person,
    at least...in certain situations/interactions
    ah, yes, the forer effect. and why exactly do you find enneagram to be more susceptible to this than other typologies?

    i'm curious as well. i think the base could look a bit hokey, what with the "mystical" look behind it, but i'd hardly compare it with astrology like some do here. i don't know, it seems like if you think jung's work is valid at all, the enneagram shouldn't be too far of a jump for you.
    6w5 sx
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    I cannot see Joy as an 8. 6w7 might be a better option, but definitely sx/sp or sp/sx either way.
    I am not a FUCKING 6. The only type I identify with less than 6 is 2.
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    i'd be a more likely 6w7, honestly.
    6w5 sx
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    I get along with people who are like the description of 6, I just don't identify with it at all, but a few people have suggested it for me. I cannot understand what they're seeing to suggest that I'm like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    I cannot see Joy as an 8. 6w7 might be a better option, but definitely sx/sp or sp/sx either way.
    I am not a FUCKING 6. The only type I identify with less than 6 is 2.
    I agree with the way Joy went about it.

    3 is "the achiever", but indeed for the sake of their social role, not personal achievement or independence.

    If your main motivation is freedom from control from others, than you are an 8. However, most 8 descriptions assume that such a person is necessarily outwardly controlling and aggressive, which is not necessary the case - as the most thorough 8 descriptions make clear.

    6's main motivation is freedom from anxiety regarding personal relationships. Now, especially to low-Fi types, any person with high focus on Fi - especially Gammas - would appear as having 6-like motivations.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    6's main motivation is freedom from anxiety regarding personal relationships. Now, especially to low-Fi types, any person with high focus on Fi - especially Gammas - would appear as having 6-like motivations.
    That makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    I cannot see Joy as an 8. 6w7 might be a better option, but definitely sx/sp or sp/sx either way.
    I am not a FUCKING 6. The only type I identify with less than 6 is 2.
    I agree with the way Joy went about it.

    3 is "the achiever", but indeed for the sake of their social role, not personal achievement or independence.

    If your main motivation is freedom from control from others, than you are an 8. However, most 8 descriptions assume that such a person is necessarily outwardly controlling and aggressive, which is not necessary the case - as the most thorough 8 descriptions make clear.
    I've always identified most with 8's motivations, but I don't necessarily act like an 8. Did you see this?
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    sx/sp
    This is perhaps the most internally conflicted of the stackings, and potentially the most inconsistent in behavior. This may occur as a blockage of the sexual instinct which can be redirected as a more generally brooding and troubled personality. They may isolate themselves for long periods of time before reemerging. They live according to a strictly personal outlook and are not particularly concerned with the approval of others outside of their immediate concern. They seem to be searching for something, the missing piece. If they find a soulmate they will unite without fanfare, forming a secret bond, dealing with formalities as an afterthought. Powerful sexual impulses facing inner resistance may manifest symbolically in the psyche, giving way to soulful interpretations of the unconscious. Under periods of stress severe sexual tensions may manifest as erratic, impulsively destructive behavior. Can seem restless, torn between the comforts of a stable home life and the urge to wander. May be prone to self-medicating.
    Motivation: to know the heart, reconcile inner conflict, form a secure union.
    This makes sense for me, more so before being properly medicated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I've always identified most with 8's motivations, but I don't necessarily act like an 8. Did you see this?
    I hadn't seen it - I never read similarminds, I've read it now.

    I disagree with that poster.

    The way I see E3 - as in the Enneagram Institute, and other sites - is this:

    (3) Key Motivations: Want to be affirmed, to distinguish themselves from others, to have attention, to be admired, and to impress others.
    Kristiina is the classical 3w4.

    It took me some time to pick 8w9 as my type - as sx/sp or sp/sx - and only by reading more deeply, focusing on motivations. It's not obvious to me or to others, though. Gilly has also suggested that I am 6, and if you look at this:

    (6) Key Motivations: Want to have security, to feel supported by others, to have certitude and reassurance, to test the attitudes of others toward them, to fight against anxiety and insecurity.
    That's the description of an ISFj a bit too concerned with Ne/Ni; some ISFjs - like Diana - will identify more with 1, which is IJ temperament.

    So, I totally understand why an ENTj with Fi-dual seeking, especially in certain periods, would appear as 6 to low-Fi types.

    But no enneagram type describes me as well as Stratiyevskaya's ENTj description.

    By the way, I use those motivation quotes to make the case, but I have read lots of very long descriptions of all types, too - those brief quotes are not the only reason for my typings.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    sx/sp
    This is perhaps the most internally conflicted of the stackings, and potentially the most inconsistent in behavior. This may occur as a blockage of the sexual instinct which can be redirected as a more generally brooding and troubled personality. They may isolate themselves for long periods of time before reemerging. They live according to a strictly personal outlook and are not particularly concerned with the approval of others outside of their immediate concern. They seem to be searching for something, the missing piece. If they find a soulmate they will unite without fanfare, forming a secret bond, dealing with formalities as an afterthought. Powerful sexual impulses facing inner resistance may manifest symbolically in the psyche, giving way to soulful interpretations of the unconscious. Under periods of stress severe sexual tensions may manifest as erratic, impulsively destructive behavior. Can seem restless, torn between the comforts of a stable home life and the urge to wander. May be prone to self-medicating.
    Motivation: to know the heart, reconcile inner conflict, form a secure union.
    This makes sense for me, more so before being properly medicated.
    where is this description from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I always disliked enneagram because none of the types ever seemed to fit me. I always seemed like... a little bit of 5 different types.
    same here
    a positive part from this one, the negative aspects of that one, combined with a litte here and a little more there....etc etc
    i've also had confusions because on the one hand the enneagram talks about the movements or cyclying that the type go through..as in average to healthier to healthiest or average to less healthy to very unhealthy (i can't remember the technical terms they used)

    but then on the other hand some people say that the enneagram types are static...as in a person can only be one type (with or without wing)...and that people don't cycle through depending on stress and other factors.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    please don't take this the wrong way...
    but this is one of the reasons I have issues with the enneagram...(and the issue is budding for me into other personality typing systems as well)...
    that a person can always find a way to justify a listed trait.
    it falls under the human ability to find patterns where there may not even be any

    that's not to say that i don't think a type description could perfectly fit a person,
    at least...in certain situations/interactions
    ah, yes, the forer effect. and why exactly do you find enneagram to be more susceptible to this than other typologies?
    Note the bolded part of what i'd written

    i'm beginning to think that personality typing systems are dependent upon people finding pattern where there may or may not be one (which can be useful to gain further self awareness (pros and cons)....or even further self delusion....)
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    sx/sp
    This is perhaps the most internally conflicted of the stackings, and potentially the most inconsistent in behavior. This may occur as a blockage of the sexual instinct which can be redirected as a more generally brooding and troubled personality. They may isolate themselves for long periods of time before reemerging. They live according to a strictly personal outlook and are not particularly concerned with the approval of others outside of their immediate concern. They seem to be searching for something, the missing piece. If they find a soulmate they will unite without fanfare, forming a secret bond, dealing with formalities as an afterthought. Powerful sexual impulses facing inner resistance may manifest symbolically in the psyche, giving way to soulful interpretations of the unconscious. Under periods of stress severe sexual tensions may manifest as erratic, impulsively destructive behavior. Can seem restless, torn between the comforts of a stable home life and the urge to wander. May be prone to self-medicating.
    Motivation: to know the heart, reconcile inner conflict, form a secure union.
    This makes sense for me, more so before being properly medicated.
    descriptions of sx/sp is the only part of enneagram that has ever remained consistent in "describing me"
    (though I question the motivation part of the quote above...but then, i disagree with a lot of motivation descriptions people/systems try to attribute to others..hehe)
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    please don't take this the wrong way...
    but this is one of the reasons I have issues with the enneagram...(and the issue is budding for me into other personality typing systems as well)...
    that a person can always find a way to justify a listed trait.
    it falls under the human ability to find patterns where there may not even be any

    that's not to say that i don't think a type description could perfectly fit a person,
    at least...in certain situations/interactions
    ah, yes, the forer effect. and why exactly do you find enneagram to be more susceptible to this than other typologies?
    Note the bolded part of what i'd written

    i'm beginning to think that personality typing systems are dependent upon people finding pattern where there may or may not be one (which can be useful to gain further self awareness (pros and cons)....or even further self delusion....)

    i certainly saw that, but your post still seems to devalue enneagram in favor of other typologies based on the forer effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    sx/sp
    This is perhaps the most internally conflicted of the stackings, and potentially the most inconsistent in behavior. This may occur as a blockage of the sexual instinct which can be redirected as a more generally brooding and troubled personality. They may isolate themselves for long periods of time before reemerging. They live according to a strictly personal outlook and are not particularly concerned with the approval of others outside of their immediate concern. They seem to be searching for something, the missing piece. If they find a soulmate they will unite without fanfare, forming a secret bond, dealing with formalities as an afterthought. Powerful sexual impulses facing inner resistance may manifest symbolically in the psyche, giving way to soulful interpretations of the unconscious. Under periods of stress severe sexual tensions may manifest as erratic, impulsively destructive behavior. Can seem restless, torn between the comforts of a stable home life and the urge to wander. May be prone to self-medicating.
    Motivation: to know the heart, reconcile inner conflict, form a secure union.
    This makes sense for me, more so before being properly medicated.
    where is this description from?
    here
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    i certainly saw that, but your post still seems to devalue enneagram in favor of other typologies based on the forer effect.
    i had meant to show that i'm losing "faith" in typology systems...period
    but i've mentioned elsewhere, in other threads, at other times, that i never could figure out the enneagram, never could understand it, never could figure out my "type" other than sx/sp..... so that probably showed up in the tone of my writing
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    I don't see what isn't Fi-seeking about being a 6.

    Type 6

    That's probably the best, most detailed and thorough Enneagram site I've ever seen, and what they describe sounds precisely like Fi-Dual Seeking behavior. Gamma NTs could easily be 6w5s (despite the fact that I think of ILIs as mostly 5w6s), and Delta STs 6w7s (although many LSEs are classic 8s; maybe these would be more of the Te subs).

    Joy, I could see you as a 7w6, but it's only even remotely possible if you're sx/sp; that decription does seem to fit you, and the 7w6 sx/sp I know (an ILE) has a lifestyle and general social outlook that is not much unlike what I perceive yours as being.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I've always identified most with 8's motivations, but I don't necessarily act like an 8. Did you see this?
    I hadn't seen it - I never read similarminds, I've read it now.

    I disagree with that poster.

    The way I see E3 - as in the Enneagram Institute, and other sites - is this:

    (3) Key Motivations: Want to be affirmed, to distinguish themselves from others, to have attention, to be admired, and to impress others.
    I'm like that in terms of competency, but not socially. I don't act like 8 as much as I do 3, but I definitely have 8 motivations.

    Kristiina is the classical 3w4.
    I could see that.

    It took me some time to pick 8w9 as my type - as sx/sp or sp/sx - and only by reading more deeply, focusing on motivations. It's not obvious to me or to others, though. Gilly has also suggested that I am 6, and if you look at this:

    (6) Key Motivations: Want to have security, to feel supported by others, to have certitude and reassurance, to test the attitudes of others toward them, to fight against anxiety and insecurity.
    That's the description of an ISFj a bit too concerned with Ne/Ni; some ISFjs - like Diana - will identify more with 1, which is IJ temperament.

    So, I totally understand why an ENTj with Fi-dual seeking, especially in certain periods, would appear as 6 to low-Fi types.
    6 almost sounds IxTp to me?

    But no enneagram type describes me as well as Stratiyevskaya's ENTj description.
    Same here. It describes me better than anything else I've read in any typology or other system. I've thought about going through it like you did, but decided it would be more effort than it's worth because doing so would be like mailing certain people invitations to come argue at me.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    but i've mentioned elsewhere, in other threads, at other times, that i never could figure out the enneagram, never could understand it, never could figure out my "type" other than sx/sp.....
    My personal view is that the 16 socionics types come closest, of all systems, to describe reality. I think the 9 Enneagram types are imperfect, they are "improvements" on Jung's types and they partly improved on them, partly created more confusion.

    So, in your case, if you are ENFp, you should identify more with 7 since that's a description of EP temperament. But if you are a "calmer" sort of EP you wouldn't necessarily identify with most descriptions.

    I don't identify readily with any type, either -- I think 8w9 makes the most sense, but a superficial view of most 8 descriptions (bossy, aggressive) certainly does not fit me well.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Misidentifying Threes and Eights

    Threes and Eights are both assertive (PT, 433-36), although the confusion between them centers on the competition found in average Threes and a similar competitiveness in average Eights.

    In general terms, both Eights and Threes are ambitious and competitive: both types want to rise above others. The difference is that average Eights are self-assertive and want others to give them their way immediately so they do not have to waste time and energy fighting with people–not that they are afraid to do so. Eights compete for material and sexual dominance, less over purely social or status issues. For instance, Eights usually do not spend a lot of time comparing themselves with others, and certainly never to the degree that Threes do. For the same reason that Threes confuse themselves with Sevens and Fives (because they are looking for a flattering identity), it is far more likely that Threes identify themselves as Eights rather than vice versa.

    Despite some superficial similarities, the differences are profound: Eights are leaders, deal makers, and power brokers who want to make the world conform to their personal vision. They want to have a large impact, to build and accomplish great things, possibly something that will live as a testament to the greatness of their audacity and will. Strong and implacable, they can be ruthless when something or someone gets in their way. They have large egos, and achieving some form of glory is important to them. Money is both a form of power and a means to amass more of it. Achieving personal power is the dominating drive in Eights, and there is nothing ambiguous, much less furtive or duplicitous, about them.

    By contrast, power is not the key motive of Threes; achieving success and prestige and basking in the admiring attention of others is. (By contrast, Eights do not care about popularity; they do not care about the goodwill of others, so long as they get their way.) If Eights are natural leaders, Threes are natural managers and technicians. If Eights do not fear failure as such, Threes fear failure deeply because they see it as a personal humiliation, a potential occasion for being rejected, their deepest fear. By contrast, Eights see failure as an opportunity to learn something and come back stronger. If Eights are too busy achieving their purposes to worry about public opinion, Threes live and die on the opinions of others and desperately want to be in demand socially. If average Eights are combative and intimidating and can "take the heat", despite a certain bravado, average Threes will back down or be driven to deviousness: they cannot take pressure for long or exposure for a moment. In short, even average Eights are the "genuine article," whereas average Threes are an imitation of it. Contrast Eights such as Telly Savalas and John Wayne with Threes such as Sylvester Stallone and Burt Reynolds.
    Okay, 8 definitely makes more sense than 3. I don't see myself as wanting to have power over others though... I just want total power over myself. Complete freedom.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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  36. #36
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Okay, 8 definitely makes more sense than 3. I don't see myself as wanting to have power over others though... I just want total power over myself. Complete freedom.

    77777777777777777777777777


    Joy, how seriously have you considered IEE? I feel like I've said this before, but sometimes I feel like you could be...you say so many things that sound EP
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  37. #37
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    Self-pres/Sexual

    This subtype is more fiery and impulsive. They still have the "no nonsense" approach to life, along with the "can do" attitude, but they exhibit more outward energy. Because the self-preservational instinct and the sexual instinct are in conflict, the one pulling in and the other pushing forward, they often have more of an on-off quality to them. But you will know where you stand with a self-pres/sexual Eight. Although their outward energy is in contrast to their inward self-pres energy, they have a very focused attitude in the areas of life in which the two energies coincide, such as the realm of family and close friendship, those things they are really passionate about. Their control over their intimate life will be noticeable. With the social instinct last in the instinctual stacking, this subtype can be blunt and confrontational with people who aren't in their inner circle.

    The self-pres/sexual Eight feels very independent. They feel as though they need no one outside of the few people they are close to. On the down side, they have a tendendcy to distrust people and tend to challenge them to see where they stand. When healthier, they realize there is sometimes a greater strength in adopting a softer approach.

    Sexual/Self-pres

    This subtype is a very charismatic. They have a very assertive energy and they demand attention. The lust of the Eight combines with the sexual instinct to make one of the most fiery of the combinations of all of the enneatypes, especially if Seven is the dominant wing. Sexual/self-pres Eights aren’t afraid to tell you what they think. The "can do" attitude that the other subtypes have is now intertwined with an outward passionate storm of energy. The sexual/self-pres Eight will be similar to the self-pres/sex Eight with respect to interests and attachment to close friends and family, but the intensity level is augmented. Since the sexual instinct is first, these Eights usually don't let an opportunity pass by to connect with those they find interesting. They can sense the power in any situation and they like to challenge people. They can enjoy making others react to them, keeping others on their toes, to find out what makes them tick. They are likely to use humor to accomplish this. When sex/self-pres Eights are unbalanced, they are very quick to anger and have a difficult time controlling their impulses.
    Okay, forget I ever mentioned 3.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Okay, 8 definitely makes more sense than 3. I don't see myself as wanting to have power over others though... I just want total power over myself. Complete freedom.

    77777777777777777777777777
    so... you're thinking 7w8 > 8w7?

    hold on, lemme read some stuff

    Joy, how seriously have you considered IEE? I feel like I've said this before, but sometimes I feel like you could be...you say so many things that sound EP
    We've talked about it... name one ENFp that I'm similar to?
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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  39. #39
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    You always describe yourself as lazy and passive. I know we all need to get more assertive to make change in life But you do not come off as energetic, even since you've started making changes in life and have "become" LIE and you certainly don't seem to "exude" shitloads of outward energy.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  40. #40
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I don't see much 8 in you at all. My mother is a STRONG 8, and she's VERY energetic, outgoing, and controlling. You have some of the same Te qualities that she has (loving to give all that life advice, protect family/friends, asking lots of questions to people whose opinions she trusts, etc), but none of the real "8-ness." 8s, especially, with an sx stacking have a lot of hutspah, something that you lack entirely.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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