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Thread: How to argue with ESIs-ISFjs

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    Default How to argue with ESIs-ISFjs

    I am finding it difficult to convince ISFJs of the merit of things. I will say for instance that is or that is likely to go well ,and they don't believe me. Often it becomes a self-fulfilling profecy for them Is there some "magic key" to convincing ISFJs?
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Use .
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I do, but I don't do it well or something. How should I use my Te with them? Usually my Ni is good enough.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    It's precisely the opposite of what you seem to do, which is to say "just trust me, I know this" or whatever -- the use of Te is about using facts, with explanations. For an example, you may see my interactions with Minde in her typing threads.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Should I be pushy? My Ex used to laugh at me when I made plans for our dates.

    For instance there was a film festival in town and I wanted to get her to watch some foreign movies. So I got a schedule of the festival and picked three different movies that I thought would be interesting. Then I called her and explained the 3 diffrent choices I had come up with and told her to pick which one she wanted to watch that week. She didn't like 2 of them (one was an Italian comedy the other a French Cnanadian documentary about animals). So we went to watch the third one, Japanese samuraies. It turned out to be an existenial movie about samuraies that involved the main character raping mother earth in some bizarre turn of plot. My ex was emotionally touched by the movie but afterwards complained that it was my fault that the movie was weird. I told her that it's not Disney, these are art house movies. I also told her that I gave 3 choices, and if she wanted she could have checked for another movie all together.

    But needless to say, I got blamed for somehow making the movie bad.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    It turned out to be an existenial movie about samuraies that involved the main character raping mother earth in some bizarre turn of plot. My ex was emotionally touched by the movie but afterwards complained that it was my fault that the movie was weird.
    Omg awesome!

    Anyway, Dio, it seems to me that the problem is that you chose films - even "giving her 3 choices" based on films you like, rather than what she likes. And no, Te is not about being pushy, it's about being informative and efficient.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Well I tried to find out what she liked by giving her choice. I mean how else could I do it while also watching something that I liked too?
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    From what I know of ISFjs, and I'll admit to not being an expert but I've learned to be careful with my brother, is that you have to figure out what one movie they would like best, and then ask if they'd like to see that movie. No choices. If she says, "That doesn't sound very good" then try to figure out ONE other movie she might like, and suggest that. One at a time. Check her reaction to each choice individually and only offer another choice if the first one didn't get a good reaction. And she'll be able to tell if you chose based on what you'd like rather that what she would like.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Well the question arises, how can I make them watch something that I want to watch then?
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    When I used to date, the guy always seemed to pick movies based primarily on what I'd like. Maybe etiquette has changed but I think that's probably still the way it's done. Sorry. If you want to see a particular movie and it is unlikely she'll like it, go on your own, with a guy, or wait for it to come out on DVD.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    My question is more general, the movie example was just that, an example.

    The main issue is this: if I think that something xxx has value, how can I show this to an ISFJ?

    The Japanese movie for instance, was not a good date movie, but it was very interesting because it was so shocking that it left an impression for a very long time. Sort of like a jolt. Plus we kept making out throughout the movie and the theatre was sold out
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    When I used to date, the guy always seemed to pick movies based primarily on what I'd like. Maybe etiquette has changed but I think that's probably still the way it's done. Sorry. If you want to see a particular movie and it is unlikely she'll like it, go on your own, with a guy, or wait for it to come out on DVD.
    You forgot one choice, another girl
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    You aren't going to keep an ISFj around for very long with an attitude like that. :wink:
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    How to talk to them ? I know that well, my father is ESI himself.

    1. Be modest and sincere. In contrast of LSE's, which would want you an assertive behaviour, ESI's prefer you submit to them. They are normative by nature.
    2. Don't complain, they would think you're weak and childish.
    3. Don't tell them to take risks, they can be pretty reckless and misevaluate them.
    4. Avoid at most as possible to contradict or criticise them. Some ESI's always wants to be right, even if they are wrong.
    5. If they do projection, don't react to it.
    6. Avoid expressive volontary anger, they can take this as a personal attack.
    7. Avoid to behave as unethical in general.
    8. Be straightforward and tell them the truth. A thing they don't like is : lying.
    9. If an ESI is yelling at you or insulting you, ignore it as it is possible. They can have a very loud voice, especially males.
    10. If they begin to get angry, try to abort communication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    From what I know of ISFjs, and I'll admit to not being an expert but I've learned to be careful with my brother, is that you have to figure out what one movie they would like best, and then ask if they'd like to see that movie. No choices.
    This isn't true, but if it was, who the fuck would want to be around this kind of person? Just figuring out how THEY want things and making it all about THEM? Asking you to be completely identity-less just so you can hang out with THEM and do what THEY like? Jesus...your brother needs an attitude adjustment...
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I'm not sure if you're understanding me, but I think it's because I didn't communicate myself well. It isn't what she wants without any concern about himself at all, but my I think most ISFjs would want to be able to tell when they're asked on a date that the person dating them was thinking of them when the movie was chosen. So it would be fine to choose a movie Dio liked but it should be very evident that it was something that the ISFj would like in particular. It's more that the emphasis would be on what the ISFj wanted rather than that Dio should martyr himself. Also I'm not really thinking of my relationship with my brother so much as Dio and some girl he's dating. Like my brother's expectations aren't the same in regard to me as a girl's expectations would be for a guy she's dating.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    That girl is out of the picture, for good or for bad.

    The issue with ISFJs remains though because they tend to be sceptical of new ventures.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    That girl is out of the picture, for good or for bad.

    The issue with ISFJs remains though because they tend to be sceptical of new ventures.
    This is a stupid question. Who is this ISFj and why won't he/she/it listen to you? What are you saying to her/it/lol?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    The issue with ISFJs remains though because they tend to be sceptical of new ventures.
    Not of "new ventures".

    Let's stick to movies. If an ISFj girl has had, say, a problem with horror movies (for instance) - if she watched a couple that really upset her - then she will be reluctant to watch horror movies. If you like horror movies, it makes little sense to try to "persuade" her to see horror movies if she'll be upset, just because you want to see the movie.

    But if you are in a good relationship with an ISFj, you will have asked her at some point precisely why she has a problem with horror movies. If you understand the reason, perhaps next time there is a different kind of horror movie, which you also like, and you know that in that particular movie the factors that upset the ISFj are lacking. Then you can tell her, "this one is different for this and that reason, I think you'll like it" and she'll say "ok, let's try it".

    It has to be sincere and true, Dio. Otherwise she'll lose her confidence in you. As she should.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    ISFj is the perfect psychiatric hospital nurse, like the one in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

    If you want that kind of company...
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    ISFj is the perfect psychiatric hospital nurse.
    So you probably have a lot of experience with them



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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    How to talk to them ? I know that well, my father is ESI himself.

    1. Be modest and sincere. In contrast of LSE's, which would want you an assertive behaviour, ESI's prefer you submit to them. They are normative by nature.
    2. Don't complain, they would think you're weak and childish.
    3. Don't tell them to take risks, they can be pretty reckless and misevaluate them.
    4. Avoid at most as possible to contradict or criticise them. Some ESI's always wants to be right, even if they are wrong.
    5. If they do projection, don't react to it.
    6. Avoid expressive volontary anger, they can take this as a personal attack.
    7. Avoid to behave as unethical in general.
    8. Be straightforward and tell them the truth. A thing they don't like is : lying.
    9. If an ESI is yelling at you or insulting you, ignore it as it is possible. They can have a very loud voice, especially males.
    10. If they begin to get angry, try to abort communication.
    This is a good way to become their slaves.

    1 - only if the requests are not unreasonable
    2- probably
    4- argue, argue and argue to death until they are hurt. This way they understand that they cannot always be right. I agree that you should avoid criticizing them. Unless their criticism becomes too much, in which case it's okay to "repay" it back
    5- tell them that they are projecting
    6- express anger when necessary
    9- yell 2 times louder
    10- as 9

    Anyway Dioklecian. You have to be insisting. Depending on whether you know if the girl likes you or not, you can gauge if to insist on asking for a date, or not. Most ISFjs will reply "no" as standard response even when they like you.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Yeah, ALL ISFjs are like THAT.
    In that setting, the controlling elements of their personality and their 'act socially appropriate' attitudes very much come alive. Of course, the population of gamma people here are definitely on the fringe of gamma. they are not at all typical and should not be considered in your considerations of type!
    asd

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    ISFj is the perfect psychiatric hospital nurse, like the one in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

    If you want that kind of company...
    Mike could you explain that?
    Well, my brother is disabled and I did go to visit him to the hospital almost daily these last weeks. The first day I saw this nurse I recalled that movie...

    ISFj are good people... except that, like ISTj, they can only see one side of things. That's why I say they make the perfect psychiatric nurse: they are at home with the idea that "the patient is always wrong, I'm always right". This nurse suggested to some medics that my brother was retarded (ISFj vs ESFj), so the psychiatrist requested an IQ test for him. He scored 124 (significantly above average), even on drugs. I think that the nurse didn't change her mind even then, but she at least stopped treating him like an idiot.

    When you spend time with psychiatric patients you will notice that most of them are not that off. For example, talking to one of them we ended up with the idea (or said better, I managed to make the conclusion) that normal people (say, 100 IQ) is fundamentally different from gifted people (say, IQ above 130). In nature most mutations are negative, rather than positive, and those who deviate from the norm are likely to be defective. That's why gifted people is usually so awkward.

    Perhaps an ENTj can sustain so much obstinacy through constant explanations based more on facts than on logic.
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    - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    How to talk to them ? I know that well, my father is ESI himself.

    1. Be modest and sincere. In contrast of LSE's, which would want you an assertive behaviour, ESI's prefer you submit to them. They are normative by nature.
    2. Don't complain, they would think you're weak and childish.
    3. Don't tell them to take risks, they can be pretty reckless and misevaluate them.
    4. Avoid at most as possible to contradict or criticise them. Some ESI's always wants to be right, even if they are wrong.
    5. If they do projection, don't react to it.
    6. Avoid expressive volontary anger, they can take this as a personal attack.
    7. Avoid to behave as unethical in general.
    8. Be straightforward and tell them the truth. A thing they don't like is : lying.
    9. If an ESI is yelling at you or insulting you, ignore it as it is possible. They can have a very loud voice, especially males.
    10. If they begin to get angry, try to abort communication.
    This is a good way to become their slaves.

    1 - only if the requests are not unreasonable
    2- probably
    4- argue, argue and argue to death until they are hurt. This way they understand that they cannot always be right. I agree that you should avoid criticizing them. Unless their criticism becomes too much, in which case it's okay to "repay" it back
    5- tell them that they are projecting
    6- express anger when necessary
    9- yell 2 times louder
    10- as 9

    Anyway Dioklecian. You have to be insisting. Depending on whether you know if the girl likes you or not, you can gauge if to insist on asking for a date, or not. Most ISFjs will reply "no" as standard response even when they like you.
    FDG WILL USE HIS BIG BAD WALL OF TO COMBAT HIS SUPERVISOR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    How to talk to them ? I know that well, my father is ESI himself.

    1. Be modest and sincere. In contrast of LSE's, which would want you an assertive behaviour, ESI's prefer you submit to them. They are normative by nature.
    2. Don't complain, they would think you're weak and childish.
    3. Don't tell them to take risks, they can be pretty reckless and misevaluate them.
    4. Avoid at most as possible to contradict or criticise them. Some ESI's always wants to be right, even if they are wrong.
    5. If they do projection, don't react to it.
    6. Avoid expressive volontary anger, they can take this as a personal attack.
    7. Avoid to behave as unethical in general.
    8. Be straightforward and tell them the truth. A thing they don't like is : lying.
    9. If an ESI is yelling at you or insulting you, ignore it as it is possible. They can have a very loud voice, especially males.
    10. If they begin to get angry, try to abort communication.
    This is a good way to become their slaves.

    1 - only if the requests are not unreasonable
    2- probably
    4- argue, argue and argue to death until they are hurt. This way they understand that they cannot always be right. I agree that you should avoid criticizing them. Unless their criticism becomes too much, in which case it's okay to "repay" it back
    5- tell them that they are projecting
    6- express anger when necessary
    9- yell 2 times louder
    10- as 9

    Anyway Dioklecian. You have to be insisting. Depending on whether you know if the girl likes you or not, you can gauge if to insist on asking for a date, or not. Most ISFjs will reply "no" as standard response even when they like you.
    FDG WILL USE HIS BIG BAD WALL OF TO COMBAT HIS SUPERVISOR.
    ?

    It's not a "will", I have been living with an ISFj for 20 years, duh, so everything has been tested. Please think before posting.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    ISFj is the perfect psychiatric hospital nurse, like the one in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

    If you want that kind of company...
    Mike could you explain that?
    Well, my brother is disabled and I did go to visit him to the hospital almost daily these last weeks. The first day I saw this nurse I recalled that movie...

    ISFj are good people... except that, like ISTj, they can only see one side of things.
    I would say this is true for every type in regard to matters of the superego block; for example an ISFj has no problem seeing both sides of an ethical argument, however he/she won't be as easily able to see both sides of a logical argument.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    How to talk to them ? I know that well, my father is ESI himself.

    1. Be modest and sincere. In contrast of LSE's, which would want you an assertive behaviour, ESI's prefer you submit to them. They are normative by nature.
    2. Don't complain, they would think you're weak and childish.
    3. Don't tell them to take risks, they can be pretty reckless and misevaluate them.
    4. Avoid at most as possible to contradict or criticise them. Some ESI's always wants to be right, even if they are wrong.
    5. If they do projection, don't react to it.
    6. Avoid expressive volontary anger, they can take this as a personal attack.
    7. Avoid to behave as unethical in general.
    8. Be straightforward and tell them the truth. A thing they don't like is : lying.
    9. If an ESI is yelling at you or insulting you, ignore it as it is possible. They can have a very loud voice, especially males.
    10. If they begin to get angry, try to abort communication.
    This is a good way to become their slaves.

    1 - only if the requests are not unreasonable
    2- probably
    4- argue, argue and argue to death until they are hurt. This way they understand that they cannot always be right. I agree that you should avoid criticizing them. Unless their criticism becomes too much, in which case it's okay to "repay" it back
    5- tell them that they are projecting
    6- express anger when necessary
    9- yell 2 times louder
    10- as 9

    Anyway Dioklecian. You have to be insisting. Depending on whether you know if the girl likes you or not, you can gauge if to insist on asking for a date, or not. Most ISFjs will reply "no" as standard response even when they like you.
    FDG WILL USE HIS BIG BAD WALL OF TO COMBAT HIS SUPERVISOR.
    ?

    It's not a "will", I have been living with an ISFj for 20 years, duh, so everything has been tested. Please think before posting.
    And you might want to read before posting, not to mention that the extensive "testing" you've done on your family is laughable. Arguing until someone is "hurt" has nothing to do with type, and only means anything if they are wrong and being stubborn about it. You should try your shouting on me; you'd wind up pretty embarrassed.

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    My mom and sis are ISFj. They are easy to live with. This type often is very hardworking. But they lack a bit logical thinking. They don't like to analize. So they expect that others will explain things instead of them. They really appriciate when someone explains to them in easy steps, how to get done the work they are doing at the moment. Often times a man with golden hands is the someone they concider to be a perfect match. Which off course can many times make them fall into ISTps.

    For a relationship, ISFjs are good when you need someone, who is hardworking and takes running the house completely to her own shoulder's. So that the man can do he's hard work outside the home. Gammas are the most hardworking quadra from all the quadras. But they value intimacy. They like the time spent alone or shared with someone special. Then they like to chat on how her friends are living. Who had a child or who made a step on a career latter. They value trust very much.

    But they have this dark side too. They sometimes, and not very often, like to controll some other person. They choose out someone they can trust. And will start working that person. They like to get into her mind and put it under her controll. All the bad things they see in others. All the intrigues someone is neting in the workplace. She will whisper to her friends ear. So she will poison silently her mind, by telling how bad, vicious and corrupt everyone are around. Leaving that woman ideologically overworked and starting hating everione that ISFj wishes she would hate.

    So they have this nasty habbit to slander about how unmoral people are around.
    Semiotical process

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    The "logical thinking" that people point out as lacking in S/FJs is not the same as "good thinking," as demonstrated by most of the Ts on this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    How to talk to them ? I know that well, my father is ESI himself.

    1. Be modest and sincere. In contrast of LSE's, which would want you an assertive behaviour, ESI's prefer you submit to them. They are normative by nature.
    2. Don't complain, they would think you're weak and childish.
    3. Don't tell them to take risks, they can be pretty reckless and misevaluate them.
    4. Avoid at most as possible to contradict or criticise them. Some ESI's always wants to be right, even if they are wrong.
    5. If they do projection, don't react to it.
    6. Avoid expressive volontary anger, they can take this as a personal attack.
    7. Avoid to behave as unethical in general.
    8. Be straightforward and tell them the truth. A thing they don't like is : lying.
    9. If an ESI is yelling at you or insulting you, ignore it as it is possible. They can have a very loud voice, especially males.
    10. If they begin to get angry, try to abort communication.
    This is a good way to become their slaves.

    1 - only if the requests are not unreasonable
    2- probably
    4- argue, argue and argue to death until they are hurt. This way they understand that they cannot always be right. I agree that you should avoid criticizing them. Unless their criticism becomes too much, in which case it's okay to "repay" it back
    5- tell them that they are projecting
    6- express anger when necessary
    9- yell 2 times louder
    10- as 9

    Anyway Dioklecian. You have to be insisting. Depending on whether you know if the girl likes you or not, you can gauge if to insist on asking for a date, or not. Most ISFjs will reply "no" as standard response even when they like you.
    FDG WILL USE HIS BIG BAD WALL OF TO COMBAT HIS SUPERVISOR.
    ?

    It's not a "will", I have been living with an ISFj for 20 years, duh, so everything has been tested. Please think before posting.
    And you might want to read before posting, not to mention that the extensive "testing" you've done on your family is laughable. Arguing until someone is "hurt" has nothing to do with type, and only means anything if they are wrong and being stubborn about it. You should try your shouting on me; you'd wind up pretty embarrassed.
    I don't need you to menace me. Of course that kind of arguing must be used only when they stubbornly stick to a wrong belief that is detrimental to them. If they are right, there is no point in arguing, so I did not even consider the case.

    What I have done is not testing in the way you mean it, but rather what I casually found out to be the best way to deal with the situation.

    Lastly, I doubt I'd be embarassed, since when I arrive to the point of shouting, it means that I can only be right about what I am sustaining.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsb'07
    My mom and sis are ISFj. They are easy to live with. This type often is very hardworking. But they lack a bit logical thinking. They don't like to analize. So they expect that others will explain things instead of them. They really appriciate when someone explains to them in easy steps, how to get done the work they are doing at the moment. Often times a man with golden hands is the someone they concider to be a perfect match. Which off course can many times make them fall into ISTps.
    I'd say they mostly lack confidence in their thinking more so than capability - more often than not they're right in the logical steps, but they are not sure about the rightness.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    How to talk to them ? I know that well, my father is ESI himself.

    1. Be modest and sincere. In contrast of LSE's, which would want you an assertive behaviour, ESI's prefer you submit to them. They are normative by nature.
    2. Don't complain, they would think you're weak and childish.
    3. Don't tell them to take risks, they can be pretty reckless and misevaluate them.
    4. Avoid at most as possible to contradict or criticise them. Some ESI's always wants to be right, even if they are wrong.
    5. If they do projection, don't react to it.
    6. Avoid expressive volontary anger, they can take this as a personal attack.
    7. Avoid to behave as unethical in general.
    8. Be straightforward and tell them the truth. A thing they don't like is : lying.
    9. If an ESI is yelling at you or insulting you, ignore it as it is possible. They can have a very loud voice, especially males.
    10. If they begin to get angry, try to abort communication.
    This is a good way to become their slaves.

    1 - only if the requests are not unreasonable
    2- probably
    4- argue, argue and argue to death until they are hurt. This way they understand that they cannot always be right. I agree that you should avoid criticizing them. Unless their criticism becomes too much, in which case it's okay to "repay" it back
    5- tell them that they are projecting
    6- express anger when necessary
    9- yell 2 times louder
    10- as 9


    Anyway Dioklecian. You have to be insisting. Depending on whether you know if the girl likes you or not, you can gauge if to insist on asking for a date, or not. Most ISFjs will reply "no" as standard response even when they like you.
    Thats' precisely how my ESTP cousin deals with her ISFJ mother.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by jsb'07
    My mom and sis are ISFj. They are easy to live with. This type often is very hardworking. But they lack a bit logical thinking. They don't like to analize. So they expect that others will explain things instead of them. They really appriciate when someone explains to them in easy steps, how to get done the work they are doing at the moment. Often times a man with golden hands is the someone they concider to be a perfect match. Which off course can many times make them fall into ISTps.
    I'd say they mostly lack confidence in their thinking more so than capability - more often than not they're right in the logical steps, but they are not sure about the rightness.
    Some types don't require something to be logical for it to be true, (and it is not always the case that things which are true are logical) which in my opinion results in this kind of thinking (being able to think logically but not being confident about it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by jsb'07
    My mom and sis are ISFj. They are easy to live with. This type often is very hardworking. But they lack a bit logical thinking. They don't like to analize. So they expect that others will explain things instead of them. They really appriciate when someone explains to them in easy steps, how to get done the work they are doing at the moment. Often times a man with golden hands is the someone they concider to be a perfect match. Which off course can many times make them fall into ISTps.
    I'd say they mostly lack confidence in their thinking more so than capability - more often than not they're right in the logical steps, but they are not sure about the rightness.
    Some types don't require something to be logical for it to be true, (and it is not always the case that things which are true are logical) which in my opinion results in this kind of thinking (being able to think logically but not being confident about it).
    Careful, dj, you're starting to sound like mikemex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by jsb'07
    My mom and sis are ISFj. They are easy to live with. This type often is very hardworking. But they lack a bit logical thinking. They don't like to analize. So they expect that others will explain things instead of them. They really appriciate when someone explains to them in easy steps, how to get done the work they are doing at the moment. Often times a man with golden hands is the someone they concider to be a perfect match. Which off course can many times make them fall into ISTps.
    I'd say they mostly lack confidence in their thinking more so than capability - more often than not they're right in the logical steps, but they are not sure about the rightness.
    Some types don't require something to be logical for it to be true, (and it is not always the case that things which are true are logical)
    I agree. Actually I think nothing is logical until you make sense of it; so we could say logical thought is purely artificial. Anyway, I was of course speaking about situation in which logical progressions are necessary ex. school work.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by jsb'07
    My mom and sis are ISFj. They are easy to live with. This type often is very hardworking. But they lack a bit logical thinking. They don't like to analize. So they expect that others will explain things instead of them. They really appriciate when someone explains to them in easy steps, how to get done the work they are doing at the moment. Often times a man with golden hands is the someone they concider to be a perfect match. Which off course can many times make them fall into ISTps.
    I'd say they mostly lack confidence in their thinking more so than capability - more often than not they're right in the logical steps, but they are not sure about the rightness.
    Some types don't require something to be logical for it to be true, (and it is not always the case that things which are true are logical) which in my opinion results in this kind of thinking (being able to think logically but not being confident about it).
    Careful, dj, you're starting to sound like mikemex.
    Why would you compliment mikemex?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by jsb'07
    My mom and sis are ISFj. They are easy to live with. This type often is very hardworking. But they lack a bit logical thinking. They don't like to analize. So they expect that others will explain things instead of them. They really appriciate when someone explains to them in easy steps, how to get done the work they are doing at the moment. Often times a man with golden hands is the someone they concider to be a perfect match. Which off course can many times make them fall into ISTps.
    I'd say they mostly lack confidence in their thinking more so than capability - more often than not they're right in the logical steps, but they are not sure about the rightness.
    Some types don't require something to be logical for it to be true, (and it is not always the case that things which are true are logical)
    I agree. Actually I think nothing is logical until you make sense of it; so we could say logical thought is purely artificial. Anyway, I was of course speaking about situation in which logical progressions are necessary ex. school work.
    Imho by definition something has to be logical in order to be true. How do you analyze the "trueness" of something if not with logic?

    and it is not always the case that things which are true are logical
    Can you really have a logically inconsistent system which is true? And what does "true" here mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by jsb'07
    My mom and sis are ISFj. They are easy to live with. This type often is very hardworking. But they lack a bit logical thinking. They don't like to analize. So they expect that others will explain things instead of them. They really appriciate when someone explains to them in easy steps, how to get done the work they are doing at the moment. Often times a man with golden hands is the someone they concider to be a perfect match. Which off course can many times make them fall into ISTps.
    I'd say they mostly lack confidence in their thinking more so than capability - more often than not they're right in the logical steps, but they are not sure about the rightness.
    Some types don't require something to be logical for it to be true, (and it is not always the case that things which are true are logical)
    I agree. Actually I think nothing is logical until you make sense of it; so we could say logical thought is purely artificial. Anyway, I was of course speaking about situation in which logical progressions are necessary ex. school work.
    Imho by definition something has to be logical in order to be true. How do you analyze the "trueness" of something if not with logic?
    Existence. If something exists, it is true even before you can find the logical reason as to why the object is acting the way it is, etc.

    Of course, you might imply that existence implies that the object has obeyed the law of physics so far and thus, it must have adhered a logical progression.


    Can you really have a logically inconsistent system which is true? And what does "true" here mean?
    I think the only way you can have a logically inconsistent system which is true is by randomization i.e. take a set of premises, run casual logical chains on them - some of them will lead to the correct result even if they are not the path which is taken in reality.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Can you really have a logically inconsistent system which is true? And what does "true" here mean?
    You can't, but this misses the point. I'm saying that a person who is less logically constrained may believe something that a more logical person says is impossible and still be right.

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