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Thread: The Function Order

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    Default The Function Order...

    How did Augusta determine it?

    I am aware Jung saw it as a matter of "king of the hill", with the other functions following each other in order of differentiation (whatever that means), but I am uncertain as to how Augusta created her own model. Obviously it was built from insights, but what exactly were those insights and how did she come about them?

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    I don't know how Augusta discovered them, but she copied a lot of Jung probably, because in Psychological Types are
    some clues given by Jung:

    1st: Most developed function
    2nd: Supportive function of opposite attitude (=introvert/extravert)
    3rd: ??
    4th: Most conflicting function with 1st

    5th to 8th: are functions of the uncounscious and are the opposite functions of the 1st to 4th

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    Default Re: The Function Order...

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    How did Augusta determine it?

    I am aware Jung saw it as a matter of "king of the hill", with the other functions following each other in order of differentiation (whatever that means), but I am uncertain as to how Augusta created her own model. Obviously it was built from insights, but what exactly were those insights and how did she come about them?
    order of differentiation, and priority of perception.

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    My solution is that the use of the strongest opposing function (as a means of repressing the attitude opposite the base) creates an environment the base somehow cannot deal with, leading it to pass off processing to the function it is least opposed to. (the role) It would be the demense of the role to deal with the consequences created by the original sublimation attempt. (by means of the 4th function.)

    On the other hand, one could also see the act of sublimating the opposite attitude as having two parts, one performed by influencing the strongest opposing function available to the base (the creative function) and the other the match of the weaker role function against the PoLR. Strong matched with strong, weak with weak. The strong function understands strength better than weakness, and so selects the creative function as it does.

    order of differentiation, and priority of perception.
    Yes but what does this really mean? Imagine if you could pin down the functions to specific biochemical gradients (as you have tried to do), and then observe how those gradients influence each other. You'd have an empirical basis for Jung's typology and Model-A both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    My solution is that the use of the strongest opposing function (as a means of repressing the attitude opposite the base) creates an environment the base somehow cannot deal with, leading it to pass off processing to the function it is least opposed to. (the role) It would be the demense of the role to deal with the consequences created by the original sublimation attempt. (by means of the 4th function.)

    On the other hand, one could also see the act of sublimating the opposite attitude as having two parts, one performed by influencing the strongest opposing function available to the base (the creative function) and the other the match of the weaker role function against the PoLR. Strong matched with strong, weak with weak. The strong function understands strength better than weakness, and so selects the creative function as it does.

    order of differentiation, and priority of perception.
    Yes but what does this really mean? Imagine if you could pin down the functions to specific biochemical gradients (as you have tried to do), and then observe how those gradients influence each other. You'd have an empirical basis for Jung's typology and Model-A both.
    Jung's typology is more related to Model J.

    Model J contains functions 1245.

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    HUH?

    You do understand that these structures exist independently of any "model", don't you?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    HUH?

    You do understand that these structures exist independently of any "model", don't you?!
    Structures can be modeled

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    I was hoping to find that something worthwhile had been written on the subject. Oh well.

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    Most of you seem to forget that MBTI was created well before Socionics. The specific definitions might be different, but types in both systems are identical from a conceptual perspective.

    There is no warranty, even today, that the socionics arrangement is the correct one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Most of you seem to forget that MBTI was created well before Socionics. The specific definitions might be different, but types in both systems are identical from a conceptual perspective.
    Glad to see there are still people who don't question that 16 types are the same in both models...


    Although my guess is that the functions in Socionics must be the correct ones, because they support the way the relations work in a logical way. MBTI functions don't do this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    Glad to see there are still people who don't question that 16 types are the same in both models...

    Although my guess is that the functions in Socionics must be the correct ones, because they support the way the relations work in a logical way.
    That is probably the truth. Also, if we look at the types in both models and compare them with Jung's descriptions, the functions in Socionics seem to correspond with Jung's types, whereas the types in MBTT don't -- based on descriptions of behaviours and attitudes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Also, if we look at the types in both models and compare them with Jung's descriptions, the functions in Socionics seem to correspond with Jung's types, whereas the types in MBTT don't -- based on descriptions of behaviours and attitudes.
    Since this issue has been raised, I just want to point out that I described my views on that here:

    http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10240

    I still think that my analysis is correct:

    Jung's Extraverted Feeling and Introverted Feeling --> correspond well to Socionics' Fe and Fi
    Extraverted Intuition ---> corresponds mostly well to Socionics' Ne, but particularly to NeFi rather than NeTi
    Introverted Intuition ---> Socionics' Ni running amok
    Extraverted Sensing ----> incomplete (and therefore misleading) version of Socionics' Se, with some Si in it
    Introverted Sensing ----> also incomplete and misleading in relation to Si
    Extraverted Thinking ---> describes "thinkers that act extroverted" rather than Te
    Introverted Thinking ---> describes "thinkers that act introverted", rather than Ti (hence the unnecessary confusion between INTj and INTp in MBTI, the Enneagram, and sometimes Socionics - it all started here)

    I think that reading about Fe, Fi, and perhaps Ne in Jung helps to understand the Socionics versions better. To read Jung about Te, Ti, Si and Ni leads to confusion.

    As to the question of how Augusta found those functions and the ordering, I think Rick's site has something on that.
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    In psychodynamics, the Id, Ego, and Super-Ego are the divisions of the psyche according to psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud's "structural theory." In 1923, Freud introduced new terms to describe the division between the conscious and unconscious: 'id,' 'ego,' and 'super-ego.' He thought these terms offered a more compelling description of the dynamic relations between the conscious and the unconscious. The “id” (fully unconscious) contains the drives and those things repressed by consciousness; the “ego” (mostly conscious) deals with external reality; and the “super ego” (partly conscious) is the conscience or the internal moral judge (The Freud Exhibit: L.O.C.).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego%2C_Superego_and_Id
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    Expat: I couldn't agree more with the conclusions you just presented here. Certainly Jung was handicapped by his own limited introspective understanding of the mind and the fact that many of his patients were personality disordered people.

    After reading over Jung's psychological types essay, I've drawn the following conclusions regarding Jung's own understanding of the function order.

    - the base function (Jung uses the word "type" to denote function-attitude pairs) is takes the first slot because it is the most developed. (the compensation from the 7th function, which is the instinctually aware function, may have something to do with this.)

    - the base function employs the most developed function of the opposite attitude and temperament (denoting here rational or irrational) as a means of countering the threats posed by the opposing attitude. (thus placing the creative function 2nd.)

    - the use of the creative function weakens the base and forces it to hand off control to its nearest partner, the other function of the same attitude and temperament. (tertiary/3rd function; apparently this becomes awareness of role somehow)

    - the role function attempts to complete the domination of the opposing attitude by influencing the PoLR (inferior/4th function) as the base did the creative.

    - the role function hands off control after the PoLR is neutralized to its nearest partner. (the function opposite the base/5th function) This begins "vital/energy" track processing. (also worth noting, until the opposing attitude is dominated it makes very little sense to use this function.)

    - Whenever a function is placed into a conscious slot it sets its opposite into the corresponding unconscious slot. (1 to 5, 2 to 6, 3 to 7, 4 to 8)

    - Apparently the 5th function is capable of pursuing one's greatest desires (obviously 6th function/HA)... the mastery of which leads to the collective unconscious.

    - Jung says nothing concrete with regard to the collective unconscious (7th, 8th functions) in his essay.

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    In Jungian psychology, the shadow or "shadow aspect" is a part of the unconscious mind which is mysterious and often disagreeable to the conscious mind, but which is also relatively close to the conscious mind. It may be (in part) one's link to animal life, which is superseded during early childhood by the conscious mind; afterwards it comes to contain thoughts that are repressed by the conscious mind. According to Jung, the shadow is instinctive and irrational, but is not necessarily evil even when it might appear to be so. It can be both ruthless in conflict and empathetic in friendship. It is important as a source of hunches, for understanding of one's own more inexplicable actions and attitudes (and of others' reactions), and for learning how to accept and integrate the more problematic or troubling aspects of one's personality
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_%28psychology%29

    From what I understand, the Shadow refers to the 7th and 8th functions. Dreams occur due to the conflict between the Shadow and the SuperEgo (3rd + 4th functions). Although the 3rd, 4th, 7th and 8th functions occur in the same quadra, I think their relative positions + strengths\weaknesses cause a cinflict in a person - the 1st + 2nd functions on the otherhand seek the 5th and 6th functions (in other people + dreams). Your anima\animus (same gender as you) refers to your Ego, and your animus\anima (opposite gender to you) refers to your SuperId.
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    As to the question of how Augusta found those functions and the ordering, I think Rick's site has something on that.
    Lot's on what it is, but little to nothing on the question of "why". Rick suggests the answers to lie in Augusta's other texts... but we don't seem to have access to these. (we could always Babelfish them if we did.)


    Subterranean:
    The shadow refers to the 7th function. ( for us, for example) The 8th function is referred to as "transcendental" or "resolution." (Jung used the transcendental function to describe two phenomenon, probably because they were archetypically similar) He equated the relationship between the 7th and the 8th with the collective unconscious.

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    I'm not sure about that - the collective unconscious is independent from socionics - by definition, it's something we all share from our common ancestral past. You might percieve the 'collective unconscious' differently because of your different preferences of functions compared to other people, but it isn't distinct from person to person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    I'm not sure about that - the collective unconscious is independent from socionics - by definition, it's something we all share from our common ancestral past. You might percieve the 'collective unconscious' differently because of your different preferences of functions compared to other people, but it isn't distinct from person to person.
    Partially correct. The collective unconscious consists of 7th function information that has been reconciled with 7th function information of the other domains by the 8th function.

    One must have a point from which to perceive collective unconscious information. Given that the domain strategies evolve over time and are "passed down" from one generation to the next, I believe that they could be considered analogous to the collective subconscious.

    Jung used the same words for many different things.

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    If you read this about the transcendent function:

    The process of coming to terms with the unconscious is a true labor, a work which involves both action and suffering. It has been named the "transcendent function" because it represents a function based on real and "imaginary," or irrational and rational, data, thus bridging the yawning gulf between conscious and unconscious. It is a natural process, a manifestation of the energy that springs from the tension of opposites, and it consists in a series of fantasy-occurrences which appear spontaneously in dreams and visions
    http://www.improverse.com/ed-article...ung_column.htm

    The Transcendent Function

    131 There is nothing mysterious or metaphysical about the term "transcendent function." It means a psychological function comparable in its way to a mathematical function of the same name, which is a function of real and imaginary numbers. The psychological "transcendent function" arises from the union of conscious and unconscious contents.

    132 Experience in analytical psychology has amply shown that the conscious and the unconscious seldom agree as to their contents and their tendencies. This lack of parallelism is not just accidental or purposeless, but is due to the fact that the unconscious behaves in a compensatory or complementary manner towards the conscious. The reasons for this relationship are:

    (1) Consciousness possesses a threshold intensity which its contents must have attained, so that all elements that are too weak remain in the unconscious.

    (2) Consciousness, because of its directed functions, exercises an inhibition on all incompatible material, with the result that it sinks into the unconscious.

    (3) Consciousness constitutes the momentary process of adaption, whereas the unconscious contains not only all the forgotten material of the individual's own past, but all the inherited behaviour traces constituting the structure of the mind.

    (4) The unconscious contains all the fantasy combinations which have not yet attained the threshold intensity, but which in the course of time and under suitable conditions will enter the light of consciousness.
    http://web.ukonline.co.uk/phil.willi...t-function.htm

    It is obvious that it is neither conscious or unconscious, or has any (individualistic) behaviours attributed to it - it is merely the container + the glue that holds the psyche together in a whole. Everybody has this, hence it is not individualistic - it is part of the basic apparatus of the psyche (i.e. the hardware).

    The collected unconscious doesn't refer to a function or a gap between two functions either. If communications between people is a collected conscious, the collected unconscious is a shared common identity amongst humans that we are not (explicitly) aware of. It doesn't fit in Model A, except as a brief notation perhaps, to explain archetypes etc. that people experience.
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    Well I think we are coming to an ideological split-point then.

    I'll tell you what: draw information direct from Jung about the transcendent function, and not from second hand sources, and perhaps I'll consider your explanations more authoritative.

    I don't let other people tell me what someone said because those people could be biased. So should you.

    This quote is in direct opposition to your assertion:
    http://www.cgjungpage.org/index.php?...=675&Itemid=41
    Psychologically, we can see this process at work in the development of a lasting and relatively unchanging attitude. After violent oscillations at the beginning the opposites equalize one another, and gradually a new attitude develops, the final stability of which is the greater in proportion to the magnitude of the initial differences. The greater the tension between the pairs of opposites, the greater will be the energy that comes from them . . . [and] the less chance is there of subsequent disturbances which might arise from friction with material not previously constellated.["On Psychic Energy," CW 8, par. 49."]

    As a rule it occurs when the analysis has constellated the opposites so powerfully that a union or synthesis of the personality becomes an imperative necessity. . . . [This situation] requires a real solution and necessitates a third thing in which the opposites can unite. Here the logic of the intellect usually fails, for in a logical antithesis there is no third. The "solvent" can only be of an irrational nature. In nature the resolution of opposites is always an energic process: she acts symbolically in the truest sense of the word, doing something that expresses both sides, just as a waterfall visibly mediates between above and below.[The Conjunction," CW 14, par. 705.]

    From the activity of the unconscious there now emerges a new content, constellated by thesis and antithesis in equal measure and standing in a compensatory relation to both. It thus forms the middle ground on which the opposites can be united. If, for instance, we conceive the opposition to be sensuality versus spirituality, then the mediatory content born out of the unconscious provides a welcome means of expression for the spiritual thesis, because of its rich spiritual associations, and also for the sensual antithesis, because of its sensuous imagery. The ego, however, torn between thesis and antithesis, finds in the middle ground its own counterpart, its sole and unique means of expression, and it eagerly seizes on this in order to be delivered from its division.["Definitions," CW 6, par. 825.]
    But it's really impossible to say what Jung meant about anything. You can only rely on intuition as a means of matching the structures he creates to real-life situations. The structures have lives of themselves.

    If communications between people is a collected conscious, the collected unconscious is a shared common identity amongst humans that we are not (explicitly) aware of.
    Jung himself used that definiton... it sounds like poorly understood .... I do not doubt the collective unconscious exists... but all universal information exists as such due to its evolutionary necessity, of this I am certain.

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    You can use this webpage (www.google.com) and quickly find quotes by Jung about it (assuming the internet is a reliable source ) e.g.:

    In the essay bearing its name, the transcendent function is described by Carl Jung as arising "from the union of conscious and unconscious contents" to produce a wholly new perspective, what Jung calls "a living, third thing."
    Jung wrote a paper in 1916 called ''The Transcendent Function'', which is what that quote refers to - I doubt I can find that online.

    Jung might have described and the 'collective unconscious'' in similar terms, but why would he have confused in particular? The collective unconscious is always unconscious, regardless of the person, and is a shared personality, rather than an individual personality. It might link to Model A, but it is distinct in its own right and self-containing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    You can use this webpage (www.google.com) and quickly find quotes by Jung about it (assuming the internet is a reliable source ) e.g.:

    In the essay bearing its name, the transcendent function is described by Carl Jung as arising "from the union of conscious and unconscious contents" to produce a wholly new perspective, what Jung calls "a living, third thing."
    Jung wrote a paper in 1916 called ''The Transcendent Function'', which is what that quote refers to - I doubt I can find that online.

    Jung might have described and the 'collective unconscious'' in similar terms, but why would he have confused in particular? The collective unconscious is always unconscious, regardless of the person, and is a shared personality, rather than an individual personality. It might link to Model A, but it is distinct in its own right and self-containing.
    First of all I'm uncertain a universally shared personality exists.

    Secondly, (although this is somewhat out of the range of discussion for this forum) with exertion observes the evolution of subjective experience over time. The point is that can recognize changes in itself.

    It might link to Model A, but it is distinct in its own right and self-containing.
    That's exactly what I meant to say. But there is a link, of that much I am certain. Consider, pathological types can attempt to erase the legacy of the collective unconscious through widespread destruction. I suspect the eighth function pulls information from the collective unconscious and into the sphere of general (or collective, to use Olga's term) consciousness.

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    I think the 'collective unconscious' must be a habitual process - i.e. people do it\experience it without thinking, because its the way they have always done things.

    i.e. you eat with a knife and fork without really thinking about it - the collective unconscious doesn't need to connect to the weakest and most unconscious of individualistic functions. It might be linked to the Id block because it makes the psyche seem ordered, with a ladder going from most conscious functions\processes to least. But, I think instead, the habitual processes stored in the memory form the basis of our personality - upon which the psyche is built.

    I suppose its an oxymoron to have a collective personality - what I mean is individualistic behaviour (determined by varying strengths of functions) = personality, and collective unconscious = shared habitual experience\knowledge\archetypes etc.
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    Jung is a good guide, but I think we owe it to ourselves to consider him just that -- a guide. Today he himself is like the unconscious figures he described. (how ironic)

    Well now I think I have a good grasp as to why the functions are ordered the way they are, but what of their roles? Why is the third function "role" and the 5th function "suggestive", for example? Or the 4th "PoLR"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Jung is a good guide, but I think we owe it to ourselves to consider him just that -- a guide. Today he himself is like the unconscious figures he described. (how ironic)
    Jung, like other geniuses, stopped making sense the day he died.
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    There is nothing mysterious or metaphysical about the term "transcendent function." It means a psychological function comparable in its way to a mathematical function of the same name, which is a function of real and imaginary numbers. The psychological "transcendent function" arises from the union of conscious and unconscious contents.
    Subterranean:
    This turns out to be an exact quote from Jung's 1916 text. (I have several of these available to me now.) He used the transcendent function to mean, essentially, function 8, the unifying function of the personality which creates a new world outlook. mysticsonic described the experience of "becoming" in one of his quotes: "becoming is like being awake... you can see it all." What he means is function 8, especially the transition from function 8 (determination) to function 1 (base).

    There is the transcendent function, which means function 8, and the transcendental function, which means something else. Jung refers to this as a sort of "inner voice"... the call that makes a man feel he has "vocation" to be a "personality" in the historical sense. He says this voice is shared by others, who are bound by this voice to the person who posses vocation. I interpret this "voice" as the awareness of information one possesses when the personal knowledge element of the base is brought into consciousness, and vice versa. (the base element of personal knowledge is made aware.)

    From our vantagepoint as INTjs, think of it as the short range and long range elements of both and being brought into consciousness simultaneously.... although it may be that what is effected is a transition from long-range to short range and vice versa, effectively removing the conscious to the unconscious and the unconscious to the conscious. I can't say definitively at this point.

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    O.K. - that seems reasonable - though it's still beyond my full comprehension .

    I thought the 'transcendant function' in maths was used to deal with imaginary numbers (i.e. the square-root of -4), rather than to refer to the actual 'numbers' themselves - if it is analogous in Jungian terms, then it is the mechanism which deals with conscious ('real') and unconscious ('imaginary') in INTjs - i.e. it is transcendant of the functions themselves. It simply holds the psyche together, between the whole of the conscious and the whole of the unconscious - it doesn't refer to the 8th > 1st functions in particular.
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

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    How does one observe that an imaginary number exists? >_>

    [...] it is transcendant of the functions themselves. It simply holds the psyche together, between the whole of the conscious and the whole of the unconscious.
    Right. But except when it is underway, there is no link between them. One is pursued at the expense of the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    One would have to imagine it exists.
    Then it would be a number that is unrealizable, something only radicals and oppositionates, I would argue, could conceive of. If you think about it, you could put transcendental numbers in a similar frame: they are transcendent in that their existence is indefinite and certain, yet their complexity reaches into the forever. It is both definable and undefinable, but certainly there.

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