Krig the Viking

So I just had a thought, inspired by this article, which Gul linked to here. Rick was talking about how using a function for too long, even the base function, will deplete that function's energy resources, after which it needs to rest for a while in order to regenerate and restore it to full power. He also talks a lot about neurons and stuff, but that's not my primary interest.

I have been thinking for a while about another question. It's difficult to describe in general terms, so I'll use an example. Ti and Fi can be thought of as opposites (External Statics of Fields vs. Internal Statics of Fields); it's said in some places that they can't both be active at the same time. However, Ti and Te can also be thought of as opposites (External Statics of Fields vs. External Dynamics of Objects); they're also sometimes described as not being able to both be active at the same time. Both pairs of "opposites" are sometimes described as "two sides of the same coin". However, this can't be true in the same sense for both, so what's the distinction?

Also, DCNH subtype theory (which I know not everyone accepts, but bear with me) posits that if Ti is strengthened, Fi will also be strengthened. At first glance this doesn't seem to make sense: if Ti is being exercised, Fi should be dormant. So why would Fi become stronger? This is also somewhat backed up by the fact that the Base function is the strongest of the Ego functions, while the Role function is the strongest of the Super-Ego (and similarly with the Vital Ring). Both suggest that the two elements composing each temperament (IJ, EJ, IP, and EP) are somehow linked.

The possible explanation that just occurred to me (or part of an explanation, really): is it possible that the two elements composing each temperament (Ti and Fi being the example) share the same energy resources? That is, if you drain your Ti energy pool, do you simultaneously drain your Fi energy pool? Is it in fact the same pool? If only one at a time can draw from the same energy pool, it would explain why only one at a time can be active. If the energy pool grows bigger/stronger with exercise, it would also explain why strengthening one strengthens the other in DCNH.

I can offer one piece of anecdotal evidence, which I thought of just now: when I come home from work, with my Role Fi fried from a long day of constantly dealing with customers (trying to make sure they like -- or at least don't hate -- me, and by extension the store), I find it nearly impossible to sit down and do any kind of hard thinking or analytical work, which I normally enjoy. I have to sit back and relax for a while, possibly watch some T.V. and laugh at some silly comedies. In other words, I have to retreat into my Super-Id and indulge my Si and Fe while my Fi and Ti recharge. Since my job doesn't require a whole lot of Ti, this suggests that my Ti was drained along with my Fi.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I figured I would post them and see if they spark any further ideas from anyone else. Right now I'm trying to figure out the relationship between Ti and Te, and how exactly they're connected. If anyone has any thoughts, or anecdotal evidence, I'm interested in hearing them!

__________________
Quaero Veritas.

crazedratXII

the distinction is dimensional. Ti & Fi are similar on a lower dimension and dissimilar on a higher one; opposite for Ti & Te. And yeah, I do think Ti & Fi for example share the same resources: it comes from Ji. But for Te & Ti, I don't think this is true. The lower dimension is where the sharing of resources happens. Te & Ti are more superficially similar. You might even consider their entire similarity a language game.

Krig the Viking

Cool, yes, this is along the lines of what I was thinking. But why is it that Ti and Te (both External elements) are opposed, while Ti and Se (also both External) can work in conjunction?

Hmm. When the question is phrased that way, the obvious answer seems to be the Static vs. Dynamic dichotomy (or, from a functional perspective, Mental Ring vs. Vital Ring). In his "Structure and Elements of the Socionics Model" article (lost in the Great Wikisocion Crash of '10), Gulenko talks about how the mind sort of switches gears when shifting focus from the Mental Ring functions to the Vital Ring functions, which might explain why both can't be active at once. But still, that doesn't explain why Ti is more linked with Te than with Si (also an External element).

Hmm.

[Edit: This is actually a question that's been bothering me for a long time. Why are Statics of Fields and Dynamics of Objects both considered Rational, and Dynamics of Fields and Statics of Objects both considered Irrational? What is it that links them on such a fundamental level? Wouldn't it make more sense for... hmm...

Okay, how about this: in each Ring (Mental and Vital), information is passed from Objects element to Fields element to Objects element to Fields element, and so on. Information is always passed from Objects to Fields, and from Fields to Objects, but never from Objects to Objects or Fields to Fields. So when information is transferred from the Mental Ring to the Vital Ring (or vice versa), it still follows those same rules: Objects to Fields, and Fields to Objects. Therefore, when Base Ti sends information to the Vital Ring, it sends it to Ignoring Te (does the Base function ever send information directly to the Suggestive? I've never actually seen that question addressed). So this must be what makes Rational elements Rational, and Irrational Elements Irrational -- a direct line of information transfer from Mental to Vital Ring and back.]

[Edit 2: In case you hadn't noticed, I'm kind of "thinking out loud" on this one. ]

[Edit 3: So to sum up, Ti and Fi are the real "two sides of the same coin" functions -- Ti and Te are really only connected by their ability to communicate through the Mental/Vital barrier.]

__________________
Quaero Veritas.

Pied Piper

Ti and Fi are not completely opposite, but conflicting. Actually because they share a lot of similarities, that's why they conflict so hard. It's like two people choosing the same narrow bridge at the same time, but coming from opposite directions.

Ti and Fi use to classify, to have an opinion on things how they are and where they belong. The big problem is that they can't agree on the categories. They are the functions which evaluate (in the sense of judgement) actually, so the earlier example about Fi-Ti conflict about promoting someone was not coincidental. They're two functions doing the exact same thing but in opposite manners - you may say just "different manners", but that means the same thing as long as they share the same fields of interest. Like two people picking up the same object and trying to go in different directions.
---

I don't understand what "shared energy pools" means, but I can see the connection to my understanding, in a way. I'd say shared resources. One could compare with two computer interfaces which do the same thing, on the same place, for example modules in the network which write and read a shared configuration file (theoretically they do the same thing) but do it using different syntax. This is what conflict is, in the end.

IMO in Socionics it is ultimately important to discern what "opposite" means talking about different issues: conflicting, complementing, ignoring, and so on.

__________________
"No trifling! I can't wait, beside!
...
With him I proved no bargain-driver,
With you, don't think I'll bait a stiver!
And folks who put me in a passion
May find me pipe to another fashion."

Ryu

I don't really know what to say about information elements, but, I know how your arm works a bit more so:

Your arm can only get so strong if you do one kind of exercise. Particularly working biceps and triceps, or more generally, the "pulling" and "pushing" muscles; you have to work both sides of the arm so that you actually get stronger overall. Focusing on just one only does so much.

Not sure how much that applies, but, it's what came to mind.

xixi

so....the phenomena you describe Krig suggests that when you're using Ti, you're also using Fi subconsciously. and vice versa.
and the question you ask is...why is that? how are the two related?

Well I don't know, but I think it has to do with the nature of consciousness...Ti creates a mental 'image', but in order for that mental picture to be personally meaningful, the mind pairs it with an experiential (Fi) affective state.

Have you heard of anosognosia? Patients with anosognosia are paralyzed on one side of their body (hemiplegic), but aren't actually aware of it - they'll deny that they're paralyzed, they'll try to live life as if they weren't paralyzed - get up to walk in the middle of the night, go back to work, etc. And those who can be made to at least acknowledge that they're paralyzed, can't be made to feel bad about it. Say to an anosognosic patient, 'You will be paralyzed on your left side for the rest of your life', and their typical reaction will be 'Oh, that's terrible' *stares curiously out the window*
In other words, they can understand the sentence, but b/c they've effectively lost all experience of their left side, the sentence holds no 'affective', no 'experiental' meaning to them. The abstract meaning has no experiential meaning to pair with, but in healthy people the two tend to occur together.

BulletsAndDoves

Samenesses can't conflict. Samenesses only conflict in the neutral sense if at all. Nothing happens. It's just 'whatever.'

Confliction is sort of duality turning on, but it's something that you don't want to be turned on. It's putting the batteries in the right way, but the entire game is something you don't want to play, or don't want to go off. You have to look at it that way, I think. Because there is just more to reality than the coming together of yin and yang and the complementary nature of opposites.

Even if your 'narrow road theory' was true and made sense, you're doing what all smart people do. You're focusing too much. There's more in the world then that one narrow road. The two conflicting energies could both equally go on another road, but going in a direction they both agree on (just on a different road) - and still get along great. It's like I'd get along with Diana if I was talking to her on a cell phone, but maybe not in the same car as her. lol. There's just not that one pathway where they disconnect, because real reality has more than that.

What you're saying is interesting to me, but also something I take issue with because your arguement in a nutshell, is the excuse people use to be against gay people. I know you don't think of that , but that's the exact same arguement they always use. 'They're too similiar, two dicks don't make a life! It's like two plus or minuses ends of batteries.' Even if that one thing is true in that sense, there is more to people than that aspect, and they find ways to get along despite that incompatibility. In other words, we are not our functions. Our functions are in us. We are greater than the sum of our Fe, Ti, Ni and Jey and whatever.

True same energy is more like, just being lil batteries together but you're bored (not even bored, you just exist?) to tears cause you're both negative ends and so the game of life won't start, but then again- the game of life won't start. That's not confliction that's just..... something that's there. If you don't really like any game that's produced or made, or any system but the ones you create yourself, you probably wouldn't care as much. I wouldn't really call that a confliction tho, and I suppose Ti and Fi does interact that way.

(I don't dislike Fi but if I had to accurately describe what I feel about it, I think that would be the most accurate)

__________________
, IEI/INFp, 6w5

thePirate

lmaoo

Brilliand

To have conflict, you must have both sameness and difference. Just one or the other won't do it.

__________________
LII-Ne

The majority is only right when I'm in it.

Johari

Pied Piper

Man, don't take things literally, because I was talking about functions. That's not something about choice, but I was using some comparisons with the sole purpose of explaining why two closely-related things actually really conflict. In the end it's caused by challenging each other, participating in the same "contest", if you want.

Now I can give you a more clear example with gays and straights: for a straight male, for example, is rather unlikely to conflict with a gay male, because he's homosexual and he doesn't deal with the same things he does it (women). But when both are straight (and as functions, similar ones) they have different intentions for their targets.

Anyway, I think the example with the promotion based on cold evaluation versus familiarity is much, much better and it also involves the two functions in question.
---

In the first part of your post you were talking about relationships between people, but I was referring to functions. When we talk about relationship, things are like that: when the partner's Base function (using the above explanation) is conflicting with your Creative one, then the human conflict comes out. Because actually the conflict is there, where your "batteries" are - you need box-shaped ones but he/she offers you cylindrical ones. So here you are, both are batteries, both need to be put in the same place, but they differ in shape.
This one is not a good example because usually someone's batteries refers to his/her Super-Id, but in the Ego block itself one function gathers information (input plug), the Creative and the other spills out different information (output plug), the Base. So for example in your case, when you look for Fe and you get Te, that's trouble. You ask someone to go and get drunk together suddenly and spontaneously (this is the idea) and he replies that you have to finish something first or there's no gain in that and you should do something useful instead.

__________________
"No trifling! I can't wait, beside!
...
With him I proved no bargain-driver,
With you, don't think I'll bait a stiver!
And folks who put me in a passion
May find me pipe to another fashion."

Trevor

It doesn't make sense. If we were to correctly assign all those things that Ti isn't to a single function, that function would prolly be Fi. And so on.

Which dimensions are we talking about? Hypothetically I can imagine a situation like this one. However when it comes to it's practical exploatation, it doesn't seem quite promising. One can put any two things into the same category. I spew dimensions on a whim. I use SVM.

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ESTj-Te
1w2 sp/sx 1-6-2

Brilliand

and share all of the attributes of being Ji, which are fairly significant.

If we were to correctly assign all those things that Ti isn't to a single function, that function would be self-contradictory and definitely not exist. The Reinin method guarantees that...

__________________
LII-Ne

The majority is only right when I'm in it.

Johari

Marie84

I can relate to the need to sort of deflect the Super-Ego in order not to stagnate. I do find it rather soothing to dabble in TeSi priorities, like maybe tidy-up a room or go work on something useful; it helps to mellow out that FiNe state of over-analyzing everything and everyone, especially if its use has limited purpose at a particular moment, and I feel like I've accomplished something afterward which is a bonus

Though I wonder if Diana has a point about this being intensified by being a introvert. I mean, even I need to retreat from people even though I'm good at dealing with them (ethics), I think I'd lose my mind if I didn't have that solitude

__________________
EII INFj
9w1

Krig the Viking

That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure it works under Model A as I understand it. According to Model A, Ti and Fi, being in the same Ring, are always either both conscious or both subconscious.

My hypothesis is that the Ji elements, due to their similarity, compete to draw energy from the same source. So when you decide to send energy to Ti for an explicit analytical task, you've also by definition decided to not send energy to Fi for categorizing people according to implicit relationships. As a consequence, only one Ji element at a time can be active, but using one drains energy from the shared pool, resulting in both of them becoming "tired".

Actually, if there are limited resources, samenesses are more likely to compete and conflict than differences, because samenesses require the same types of resources. Differences don't compete for resources as much, because they require different resources.

Lions and hyenas, for example, are similar in that they're both large carnivores who eat the same prey. They often conflict, especially in times when prey is scarce. Lions and elephants, however, almost never conflict, because elephants have no use for antelope, and lions have no use for leaves. They don't compete over the same resources, because they're too different.

I'm suggesting something similar. If I'm right, Ti and Fi compete, because they consume the same "mental energy" resources, and giving those resources to one is the same as denying them to the other.


This is a good objection, and I've given it some thought. I think it's important to distinguish between physical exhaustion and mental exhaustion. If I've been doing heavy manual labour all day at work, then obviously when I get home I don't want to go anywhere or do anything. However, if I've just been standing around, dealing with customers for a few hours, I may still be physically full of energy, but my Fi will be burned out. However, if some close friends came by after work and invited me to come hang out, I would find that just as relaxing and re-energizing as watching T.V., so long as I didn't have to do any analysis (Ti), or deal with people I don't know well, and have to figure out whether they like me or not (Fi).

This morning I actually saw an example of the reverse situation. I had a meeting with some people I know and trust (no need to worry about Fi), regarding a fairly serious matter that affects all of us. Things got pretty emotional (Fe). Afterward, I was invited out for lunch, which ordinarily I would enjoy (Si+Fe!). However, all that Fe had tired out my Suggestive function, so I declined and went home and did a lot of Ti analysis of the situation. The difference is that, after work when I've been using a lot of Fi, even if I'm not physically tired, I still don't feel like doing any Ti analysis.

The evidence seems pretty consistent with my own experiences, anyway. I will definitely keep observing things, though, to see if you're right, Diana.

If anyone has any relevant specific examples of their own, I would be interested to hear them.

__________________
Quaero Veritas.

Pied Piper

As long as the incompatible functions fundamentally clash instantly - and as their corresponding information elements contradict, that's more likely to be the reason for the exhaustion in types/people. Interacting with incompatible people simply forces one to take more decisions and changes, because the first - and natural - try never works. This exhaustion is the exhaustion of the processing energy allocated to the brain.

I think the explanation involving this mysterious "energy" is artificial and pretty lazy. For me at least, it doesn't make sense.

__________________
"No trifling! I can't wait, beside!
...
With him I proved no bargain-driver,
With you, don't think I'll bait a stiver!
And folks who put me in a passion
May find me pipe to another fashion."

Trevor

Yeah, yeah,yeah..in other words; yes. The point was: stronger the Ti, weaker the Fi and viceversa. Ti-Fi is a continuum. So is Ji-Pe. However the Ti-Fi continuum is, generally speaking, much more meaningful than Ji-Pe one due to information gain. Of course, the meaningfulness depends upon the task at hand.

__________________

ESTj-Te
1w2 sp/sx 1-6-2

Krig the Viking

So, to be clear, your contention is that Rick's article is wrong, and that strenuous use of any function will tire out the whole brain, not just that individual function? From what I can tell, it seems like that's what you're saying. If that's the case, then how do you explain the recuperative effects of the "compensatory activities" Rick describes, i.e., activities designed to stimulate the Super-Id when the Ego is exhausted? If the whole brain is exhausted, shouldn't those activities be just as fruitless as continued use of the Ego?

__________________
Quaero Veritas.

Pied Piper

You have a point. But consider that your view doesn't explain the recharge either, for example you get tired on your Ego by a hostile environment, then to a compensatory activity which drains the Super-Id energy, but on repeated such cycles, that Super-Id energy wouldn't exhaust itself?

Or what if you had been involved in an activity of the type of your Id? Your Id is conflicting with your Super-Id, therefore, as long as they share energy pools, that block would be drained as well, right? What activity would be compensatory for this?

In Rick's article there's written something that rather match with my view (and btw, Rick might be wrong as well, he's not a god, but imo he's right there):
This is exactly what I was telling you. One's normal activity, based on his/her Ego type of information requires energy expenditure, because there's where you create, you do things, that's your field. When it exposed to incompatible information/requirements, one needs much more energy, to counteract then do something based on his/her strengths, this is where the mental energy is lost fast, is like a throttle uphill.
But Super-Id type of activity is an activity you just accept, you don't create and consume energy for that, neither it's something that bothers or needs fixes, so your brain relaxes and accepts that naturally without a requirement for production either. The brain, working to a much lower rate than normally, has the possibility to recover.
---

And don't forget, functions clash on the spot. Even if they had shared energy pools with others, that's no explanation for this.

__________________
"No trifling! I can't wait, beside!
...
With him I proved no bargain-driver,
With you, don't think I'll bait a stiver!
And folks who put me in a passion
May find me pipe to another fashion."

Brilliand

It makes sense as a reaction to a known problem that previously took time to manifest.

__________________
LII-Ne

The majority is only right when I'm in it.

Johari

Pied Piper

What in the quote makes sense as a delayed reaction and how they connect?
My remark was referring to previous examples where is was showed that type are predictably reacting negatively to the incompatible type of information. That happens instantly.

__________________
"No trifling! I can't wait, beside!
...
With him I proved no bargain-driver,
With you, don't think I'll bait a stiver!
And folks who put me in a passion
May find me pipe to another fashion."