Question for Ti types - Page 2

03-15-2010, 09:32 AM

OK, maybe I am missing something, or perhaps my post isn't fully understood, or a bit of both.

1. Why 9 types? Why specifically 9? This is a major flaw which has no logical base.

2. Trichotomy, I don't know what this is, but is this heart/mind/instinct?

Everyone relies on instinct every so often, for instance in life death situation, don't think it takes a genius to work out that hopefully not everyone is in life death situation and can also have a heart and use the mind.

3. What also is the usefulness of enneagram? Considering there's no reasons for there to be just 9 types, if I have some sort of personal development problem, then I can speak to a friend, buy a book, see a therapist, that's far more useful and specific. Socionics on other hand gives me an insight of compatibility - which so far has proved to be pretty reliable. Other problems in my life can be handled differently.

HaveLucidDreamz · 03-15-2010, 12:19 PM

The enneagram isn't the anti-Ti

I mean I think its ridiculous in the first place to assign 16 types to people... the only reason your saying 16 isn't ridiculous and 9 is is because the 16 types were derived after the fact and after some theory was establish, but the theory itself what was it establish from? Natural Observation? What are all theories established from? Gravititational Theory arose from observation and so forth. What observation did jungian functions or socionics spring from that is soo much more reliable than the enneagram?

There is no more reason for having only 9 types than there is no more reason for having 16 or having only 8 jungian funcitons or having 4 dicotomies and so forth... there is nothing special about the quantities in personality theory.... personality isn't a quantitative measure. Its strictly qualitative.... the quantities merely arise from choosing and arbitrary number of "themes" to compress information about personality. each of the jungian functions are merely themes which contain a load of information that without their invention would take many adjectives to articulate. They are just a set of behavior etc wrapped up to make the process of communicating and thinking easier. The same is for the enneagram. The 9 types are not some divine thing and neither is socionics. The 9 types are merely an arbitrary set of coherent and consistant personality types, that people may strongly or weakly identify with.

I find the idea of matching to any personality type 100% to be ridiculous. There is nothing mystical about the enneagram and nothing mystical about socionics. Socionics is no better simply because they've added a layer of theoretical derivation to make you believe it. You could make a system working backwards with 5 layers of theoretical derivation and it wouldn't be better, just more complicated. The true test is how things match up with reality, and in my opinion, by observation the enneagram is just as reliable as socionics. It has some theoretical structure to it (triads, direction theory etc) and more importantly its elegant in the fact it can communicate stuff about human behavior and personality in a compact form (Ti - communicating complex ideas through logical structures). The stupid enneagram symbol can help you visualize the information easier, is about the only thing special with the symbol.

Also no one is forcing you to think in terms of the enneagram... but choosing to think outside of the enneagram is different than simply saying its illogical and wrong. I choose to express my thoughts in the english language, and if I were more ignorant I may look at the russian language and say "What are all these symbols and crap, they mean nothing... this is all mystical, they are just scribles on a page, nothing useful, complete nonsense, illogical!".... but it really isn't, its merely something I don't understand, and something I more than have the right to not understand if I wish, but that doesn't mean russians are illogical mislead idiots, and people who are interested in the enneagram are not a bunch of illogical idiots.

hkkmr · 03-15-2010, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brilliand

Given this, how would you view the ternary division "Heart/Mind/Instinct" - that is, what would be wrong with an Enneagram that simply left out the 3/6/9 triad?

As an aside, I recall that in the past I've viewed "Heart/Mind/Instinct" as leaving out Intuition.

Enneagram is full of these Positive-Negative (Unknown) measurements.

I've been thinking about this over the weekend, so here is my take which I've deduced.

Let's take out the 3/6/9 triad for now..
Heart and Mind should make for a easy distinction between ethics and logic. The types here are 2/4 and 5/7. I view 4 and 5 being more oriented towards introversion and 2 and 7 being more oriented towards extroversion. However there is still confusion here, because there is a lack of clear distinction between these characteristics.

Instinct consist of types 8 and 1. The one characteristic that defines both 8 and 1 is they are not types to be changed by the world but rather seek to change the world. The Challenger and the Reformer both remain stable while they seek to change the world around them.

We can view these types as being fundamentally static.

Now let's look at what we've taken out.
Conversely, Types 3 and 9 are driven by presenting a image of themselves in order to acquire achievement or preserve stability.

3's are image and status driven while 9 are peace and stability driven. They accommodate themselves to their enviroment and others in order to acquire their desires.

We can view these types as fundamentally dynamic.

So in the discussion of these 4 types, we can see some characteristics within their modes of behavior.

3's live externally while 9 live internally
8's are outsiders and "mavericks" while 1's work from within

Eights are external static types, One's are internal static types
Threes are external dynamic types, Nine's are internal static types

What are 6's?

These are people of which we know very little about, they are characterized by a lack of expressed attributes and I think characterized by confusion within their identity. 6's are a sort of Null + Null type.

At this point we have something that is a binary model, although we are not certain what exists to differentiate the differences being observed or their validity.

07490 · 03-15-2010, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huginn

The enneagram actually has more logical glue than most people think, because the skeletal theory of the enneagram is not usually prominent in most of the literature -- you have to dig a bit. You are correct though, in saying that the logical basis is not as pervasive or cohesive as it is in socionics.

The enneagram is built on trichotomies rather than dichotomies. Most people are already familiar with the Heart/Head/Gut triads. This triad describes the central issue of an enneatype. According to enneagram theory, each type will deal with their central issue in one of three ways: they over-express it, they under-express it, or they are out of touch with it. This is how it is structured:

Two: over-expresses their emotions (i.e. emotionally demonstrative, and placing too much emphasis on having the right kind of emotions)
Three: out of touch with their emotions (i.e. acting according to rules in order to solicit comforting emotions from others rather than following their own emotional compass)
Four: under-expresses their emotions (i.e. while being emotionally-oriented they subject them to their ideals, their ruminations and analysis)
Five: over-expresses their intellect
Six: out of touch with their intellect
Seven: under-expresses their intellect
Eight: over-expresses their instincts
[B]Nine[B]: out of touch with their instincts
One: under-expresses their instincts

The proximity to other types -- for example, the wings -- also affect the type. For example, the traits of the E2 are logical extensions of over-expressing their emotions, under-expressing/repressing their instincts (1), and also being somewhat out of touch with their emotions (3), and being about as far removed from the intellect as you can get.

The order of the types then makes logical sense because, like in socionics, if you over-focus on one aspect you don't really over-focus on anything else, but it will still play some part in your overall personality. Like functions in socionics, each enneatype will have a qualitatively different way of dealing with each of the three core issues.

While I don't know that the other, "lesser" triads (for example, the Hornevian triads) have a theoretical basis (I suspect they may be after-the-fact), they are still logical, and fit within the overal framework of the enneagram and its trichotomies.

03-16-2010, 09:26 AM

So it seems no ones been able to explain why there is only 9 types - this is where the Ti comes into it.

The other stuff, triads, wings, etc don't mean anything because it's built on a non-Ti system - there's no reason for there being only 9 types. Even Gurdjief didn't intent there to be 9 types.

Also, for myself, there's no practical benefit from the enneagram either.

Buying into enneagram, well if it works for you, fair enough.

BulletsAndDoves · 03-16-2010, 02:24 PM

I'm so-so on the enneagram.

Socionics more accurately describes your societal egoic identity, as well as relationship between individuals and groups in society. It also treats the types a lot more fair. When people accurately describe socionics, I don't see many biases, making it a pretty solid theory for me.

Enneagram, OTOH, seems like more of those gay ass 'career builders' where they try to mix in your psychological identity with your career. We Americans think it's only natural to strive to do something related to who you really are on the inside. I think that's just plain arrogant and obnoxious, though - since society itself is always a veil however necessary it is. It's also way too hard on 4s, just because it's always easier to pick on the bard-y emo than it is to go after the people that actually fuck up the world. It's really spineless and pathetic and cowardly, in that regard. But the system itself is just naturally set up for those who are complete shit to be successful in it. *sigh* Whachagonnado.

Jarno · 03-16-2010, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclops

Do you believe in or prescribe to enneagram?

If so, why? It has zero Ti.

If it has Ti, maybe you could explain it? It seems to me like it is just a bunch of stuff thrown together with no actual logical glue (unlike socionics which has a pretty good Ti base).

Actually, i'd be suprised if logical types in general take more than a passing interest in it (given Te types still have strong Ti).

I always wondered why people take enneagram serious.

Jarno · 03-16-2010, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclops

3. What also is the usefulness of enneagram?

This is indeed an important criteria for valid a theory. It has to have a purpose for humans.

Compared to socionics, enneagram scores poorly on this. (Fair enough, compared to socionics (=how to find your soulmate) most theories score lower on usefulness)

Pied Piper · 03-16-2010, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves

Enneagram, OTOH, seems like more of those gay ass 'career builders' where they try to mix in your psychological identity with your career.

Yeah exactly.

RSV3 · 03-18-2010, 03:37 AM

I definitely agree with blaze and labcoat on this one. It seems like many if not most alpha NTs do not have much faith in the enneagram.

labcoat · 03-18-2010, 10:58 AM

I don't even understand what it means to have faith in the enneagram. Does it mean I can determine what kind of profile a person identifies with, on the basis of... what kind of profile a person identifies with...? Whut?

electric sheep · 03-22-2010, 02:00 AM

For all you enneagram haters out there, here's a quote that I believe is pertinent:

Quote:

The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the Matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Pied Piper · 03-22-2010, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electric sheep

For all you enneagram haters out there, here's a quote that I believe is pertinent:

Is that some sort of Scientology? Sounds like a quote from a novel.

stanprollyright · 03-22-2010, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinocchio

Is that some sort of Scientology? Sounds like a quote from a novel.

It's from the movie The Matrix Reloaded.

electric sheep · 03-22-2010, 04:27 AM

oh I guess I should've included the source

Yea the Architect says it in the Matrix.

Pied Piper · 03-22-2010, 05:13 AM

I understand, thanks.

**Vero** · 03-22-2010, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diana

Why would a Ti type need something to be Ti? Surely they could appreciate good clear logic, but it makes just as much sense that they'd appreciate something for its Ni, or Ne, Si or Se, or Fe. The enneagram is Ni, and you can apply your own Ti to it, or not. You're right that it's not Ti.

As for "believing in it" eh, well, I found one E-type that fits me through-out the health levels, and none others that do so as well, and it explains my weak points, gives an explanation to me for my own actions and reactions that I could not understand before, so in that, it has its use.

This is pretty much how I feel about it. I can't be bothered to play with it like I do socionics, but it's a pretty straightforward system. I had the same experience as Diana and my mother had a lot of background in it as well so when I went through the paces of finding my E-type and came out with 7w/ my mom basically agreed and I moved on with my life.

To be a Ti ego you don't have to pick apart every system you use or subscribe to in life. If that were the case we wouldn't be able to do anything with our lives. You would be too busy working out the details of the Dewey Decimal System to use the library (not suggesting this is necessarily a Ti system, I don't know enough about it to say what function it might appeal to most). Similarly, something doesn't have to cater to Ti for you to make use of it.

EDIT:Gulanzon has advised me that my wording was not exactly peaceable, so instead I will say this:

Dear Pinocchio,

You have your opinion, you say I'm an ILI. That's cool. I disagree. Let's move on.

Sincerely,
Véro

Pied Piper · 03-23-2010, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vero

You have your opinion, you say I'm an ILI. That's cool. I disagree. Let's move on.

But we do that. Everytime you do your self-characterization and assert that your ILI traits are ILE, because of your self-proclaimed title, I'll just say my objections. It's not necessary to answer them, I'm not posting to provoke you, but to correct you.

I assume that you are not thinking that you're a know-it-all and anyone could not be right about you to have a right to an opinion...

**Vero** · 03-23-2010, 02:15 AM

Well Pinocchio, since you won't leave it alone then I'll simply have to ignore you. For future reference, I'll be keeping you on ignore.

labcoat · 03-23-2010, 02:22 AM

Vero,

03-15-2010, 12:19 PM	#22 (permalink)
HaveLucidDreamz One who vends peanuts Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,886	The enneagram isn't the anti-Ti I mean I think its ridiculous in the first place to assign 16 types to people... the only reason your saying 16 isn't ridiculous and 9 is is because the 16 types were derived after the fact and after some theory was establish, but the theory itself what was it establish from? Natural Observation? What are all theories established from? Gravititational Theory arose from observation and so forth. What observation did jungian functions or socionics spring from that is soo much more reliable than the enneagram? There is no more reason for having only 9 types than there is no more reason for having 16 or having only 8 jungian funcitons or having 4 dicotomies and so forth... there is nothing special about the quantities in personality theory.... personality isn't a quantitative measure. Its strictly qualitative.... the quantities merely arise from choosing and arbitrary number of "themes" to compress information about personality. each of the jungian functions are merely themes which contain a load of information that without their invention would take many adjectives to articulate. They are just a set of behavior etc wrapped up to make the process of communicating and thinking easier. The same is for the enneagram. The 9 types are not some divine thing and neither is socionics. The 9 types are merely an arbitrary set of coherent and consistant personality types, that people may strongly or weakly identify with. I find the idea of matching to any personality type 100% to be ridiculous. There is nothing mystical about the enneagram and nothing mystical about socionics. Socionics is no better simply because they've added a layer of theoretical derivation to make you believe it. You could make a system working backwards with 5 layers of theoretical derivation and it wouldn't be better, just more complicated. The true test is how things match up with reality, and in my opinion, by observation the enneagram is just as reliable as socionics. It has some theoretical structure to it (triads, direction theory etc) and more importantly its elegant in the fact it can communicate stuff about human behavior and personality in a compact form (Ti - communicating complex ideas through logical structures). The stupid enneagram symbol can help you visualize the information easier, is about the only thing special with the symbol. Also no one is forcing you to think in terms of the enneagram... but choosing to think outside of the enneagram is different than simply saying its illogical and wrong. I choose to express my thoughts in the english language, and if I were more ignorant I may look at the russian language and say "What are all these symbols and crap, they mean nothing... this is all mystical, they are just scribles on a page, nothing useful, complete nonsense, illogical!".... but it really isn't, its merely something I don't understand, and something I more than have the right to not understand if I wish, but that doesn't mean russians are illogical mislead idiots, and people who are interested in the enneagram are not a bunch of illogical idiots. __________________ Alpha NT Last edited by HaveLucidDreamz; 03-15-2010 at 12:31 PM.

03-16-2010, 02:24 PM	#26 (permalink)
BulletsAndDoves Rainbow mage Join Date: May 2007 Location: MI Posts: 5,045 Blog Entries: 7	I'm so-so on the enneagram. Socionics more accurately describes your societal egoic identity, as well as relationship between individuals and groups in society. It also treats the types a lot more fair. When people accurately describe socionics, I don't see many biases, making it a pretty solid theory for me. Enneagram, OTOH, seems like more of those gay ass 'career builders' where they try to mix in your psychological identity with your career. We Americans think it's only natural to strive to do something related to who you really are on the inside. I think that's just plain arrogant and obnoxious, though - since society itself is always a veil however necessary it is. It's also way too hard on 4s, just because it's always easier to pick on the bard-y emo than it is to go after the people that actually fuck up the world. It's really spineless and pathetic and cowardly, in that regard. But the system itself is just naturally set up for those who are complete shit to be successful in it. sigh Whachagonnado. __________________ , IEI/INFp, 6w5

03-18-2010, 03:37 AM	#30 (permalink)
RSV3 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 141	I definitely agree with blaze and labcoat on this one. It seems like many if not most alpha NTs do not have much faith in the enneagram. __________________ www.sociotype.com LII Increased expression of one function (1) suppresses the opposing intradichotomy function and (2) suppresses the opposing intrablock function (and vise versa).

03-18-2010, 10:58 AM	#31 (permalink)
labcoat retro stuffs Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,772	I don't even understand what it means to have faith in the enneagram. Does it mean I can determine what kind of profile a person identifies with, on the basis of... what kind of profile a person identifies with...? Whut? __________________ INTj Objection! Oh by the way...

03-22-2010, 04:27 AM	#35 (permalink)
electric sheep constant change Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,292 Blog Entries: 5	oh I guess I should've included the source Yea the Architect says it in the Matrix. __________________ The saddest ESFj ...

03-15-2010, 09:32 AM	#21 (permalink)
Creepy-Cyclops Posts: n/a	OK, maybe I am missing something, or perhaps my post isn't fully understood, or a bit of both. 1. Why 9 types? Why specifically 9? This is a major flaw which has no logical base. 2. Trichotomy, I don't know what this is, but is this heart/mind/instinct? Everyone relies on instinct every so often, for instance in life death situation, don't think it takes a genius to work out that hopefully not everyone is in life death situation and can also have a heart and use the mind. 3. What also is the usefulness of enneagram? Considering there's no reasons for there to be just 9 types, if I have some sort of personal development problem, then I can speak to a friend, buy a book, see a therapist, that's far more useful and specific. Socionics on other hand gives me an insight of compatibility - which so far has proved to be pretty reliable. Other problems in my life can be handled differently.

03-16-2010, 09:26 AM	#25 (permalink)
Creepy-Cyclops Posts: n/a	So it seems no ones been able to explain why there is only 9 types - this is where the Ti comes into it. The other stuff, triads, wings, etc don't mean anything because it's built on a non-Ti system - there's no reason for there being only 9 types. Even Gurdjief didn't intent there to be 9 types. Also, for myself, there's no practical benefit from the enneagram either. Buying into enneagram, well if it works for you, fair enough.

03-22-2010, 05:13 AM	#36 (permalink)
Pied Piper Inexorable Tunes Join Date: May 2007 Location: Brain Sociotype: ILE Posts: 4,958	I understand, thanks. __________________ "No trifling! I can't wait, beside! ... With him I proved no bargain-driver, With you, don't think I'll bait a stiver! And folks who put me in a passion May find me pipe to another fashion."

03-23-2010, 02:15 AM	#39 (permalink)
Vero <something> Join Date: May 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 3,285 Blog Entries: 7	Well Pinocchio, since you won't leave it alone then I'll simply have to ignore you. For future reference, I'll be keeping you on ignore. __________________ ILE 7w☼ so/sp 7-8-3 Pink and purple and yellow and blue and a mouth that's crying out for lipstick too. Warhol's portrait of Gretzky - pretty fucking sexy!

03-23-2010, 02:22 AM	#40 (permalink)
labcoat retro stuffs Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,772	Vero, __________________ INTj Objection! Oh by the way...

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