Quadra Dynamics - Page 4

**Gilly** · 12-25-2009, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strrrng

That makes sense, since quality work should have no personal or egotistical implications.

's the last time I put effort and careful contemplation into anything...

**Gilly** · 12-25-2009, 08:21 AM

I love how the one time I create a thread with selfless intentions and actually want to see something happen that doesn't revolve around me, I just get consistent, moderate praise. What the fuck is this world coming to?

**strrrng** · 12-25-2009, 08:23 AM

You didn't get praise; the analysis did.

**Gilly** · 12-25-2009, 09:41 AM

Touche. But intellect is one of my primary fixations, so it shouldn't matter...but...;_;

Blaze · 12-25-2009, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilly

I'm sorry, it just looks to me like everything you write is a rehashing of what I put down in the original post. I've read every word you've written in this thread and I just don't see the difference between what I wrote originally and your versions. I'm not trying to make this personal; au contraire, I want to stop it before it gets there. I just think it would be more productive if you pointed out what you thought was a problem instead of just rewording everything I say.

why don't you look at the first post i made; that's what i think. you know how to push the back button, right?

i've also said that you've left out the left ring.

if you and your butt buddy can separate your body parts for a minute...maybe you will be able to comprehend fairly simple and straightforward ideas.

Blaze · 12-25-2009, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FDG

I like Gilly's analysis. I don't like the nomad-boom-millennial generation stuff...too vague.

Anyway, @Blaze: I think dog-eat-dog is more typical of aristocratic quadras; STs are the types most likely to (perhaps unwillingly) engage in that line of action (not necessarily thinking: they may not be thinking about how the world perceives their actions, that's where NFs come into play). Gammas either have types with Fi, which gives a certain sense of insecurity towards acting boldly, unless there's some personal bond at stake; or types with Ni, which are clearly rather hesitant at taking actions that deal with pushing people around, even if they can be good at catching opportunities when they come by (catching opportunities though usually requires little interaction with the environment - otherwise it would be classified as creating opportunities).

fdg to me dog-eat-dog seems Se oriented, paired with Te. ergo gamma. except for the people kept close via Fi. prolly just how i see it as an alpha though. when i think of Te, i think wall street, no known ethics really. *shrugs*

The Greeter · 12-25-2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaze

fdg to me dog-eat-dog seems Se oriented, paired with Te. ergo gamma. except for the people kept close via Fi. prolly just how i see it as an alpha though. when i think of Te, i think wall street, no known ethics really. *shrugs*

I think both Se-focused quadras abide by the dog-eat-dog dogma but the difference in which it manifests is due to an aristrocratic attitude from the former and a democratic attitude from the latter. Gamma's nature manifests as you described in the quote above (cutting aside the judgements--and I don't say this in a bad way). For Beta, I feel their natural focus on a "grand" and implicit social hierarchy, their emphasis on the individuation of their chosen group, makes them naturally want to be better than the rest.

I find Alpha and Delta doing most of the adjusting, though they have a competitive streak as well. And even if the Si-focused quadra tend to "adapt" as a whole, it's not so uncommon that they would best the Se-oriented quadra in their own game.

**Gilly** · 12-25-2009, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaze

why don't you look at the first post i made; that's what i think. you know how to push the back button, right?

FOR FUCKS SAKE I'VE READ YOUR POST AT LEAST FOUR TIMES, I WOULDN'T BE ASKING FOR CLARIFICATION IF I COULD FIND WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT OR GRASP YOUR STANCE ON MY OWN. To ME, it looks like YOU have no desire to reach an understanding, or you would seek to be understood rather than being dismissive. I have tried and apparently failed; I am willing to admit that much. Now will you help me understand or do you really just not give a shit?

I'm trying to be ingenuous, I really, really am, but there's only so much I can do! I'm trying, I swear! I wouldn't be this self-effacing if I was just trying to win or get attention or something; I am genuinely curious about what you think, because I don't see why you would be this persistent in this one discussion if this was about venting; you would probably just go somewhere else, unless you are targeting me for a reason. Please, help me understand! I'm not trying to be aggressive or turn you off or anything; I just really don't understand where you are coming from here.

Quote:

i've also said that you've left out the left ring.

I don't know what you mean. How has my analysis excluded any of the types? This continuum encompasses all quadras; each type within each quadra serves its individual purpose in this cycle. I realize that the left ring of benefit goes in the opposite direction of what I have depicted, but I don't think that necessarily implies that the idea of quadra progression in society can travel in the opposite direction as well. How do you think this would manifest? What roles do you think the quadras would play in such a cycle?

BulletsAndDoves · 12-25-2009, 11:45 PM

Quote:

I have a way of putting my feelings aside when I actually wish to see something accomplished.

I have a way of putting my accomplishments aside when I want to feel feelings. =p

Marie84 · 12-26-2009, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Greeter

I think both Se-focused quadras abide by the dog-eat-dog dogma but the difference in which it manifests is due to an aristrocratic attitude from the former and a democratic attitude from the latter. Gamma's nature manifests as you described in the quote above (cutting aside the judgements--and I don't say this in a bad way). For Beta, I feel their natural focus on a "grand" and implicit social hierarchy, their emphasis on the individuation of their chosen group, makes them naturally want to be better than the rest.

I find Alpha and Delta doing most of the adjusting, though they have a competitive streak as well. And even if the Si-focused quadra tend to "adapt" as a whole, it's not so uncommon that they would best the Se-oriented quadra in their own game.

This
The dog-eat-dog mentality stems from Se+Ni IMU

FDG · 12-26-2009, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marie84

This
The dog-eat-dog mentality stems from Se+Ni IMU

Mmmh. But, say, ESTjs are also really likely (perhaps more likely than ENTjs or INTps, from my perspective) to involuntarily promote that type of attitude towards work.

**strrrng** · 12-26-2009, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaze

fdg to me dog-eat-dog seems Se oriented, paired with Te. ergo gamma. except for the people kept close via Fi. prolly just how i see it as an alpha though. when i think of Te, i think wall street, no known ethics really. *shrugs*

I actually think it's more representative of SeTi. While the Se+Te combination tends to focus primarily on the objective, mechanical -- "what works" -- which can seem to engender callousness in the pursuit of pragmatism, I ultimately think that Fi keeps things in check to a degree that would limit such a thing from becoming too pervasive (after all, gammas are reformers, which entails a certain stability). With FiSe, implicit boundaries are established between directly observable things and people; so, while NiTe processes can be modulated in any way on their own, when the aforementioned things are imposed on them, the scope of possible actions is narrowed down significantly, and finds a more solid basis.

Conversely, with beta you have SeTi -- these two explicitly-defined elements are the boundaries, essentially the nuts and bolts that structure the core precepts and guidelines for how things operate in a beta society. While limited to observable qualities, systematization can occur endlessly, and the "rules" can be isolated down to a seeming perfection in order to justify ideologies. Ni centralizes themes "behind" the Se variables, which can bring about an attitude of urgent realism; while the Fe dynamics that occur under the surface with people are inevitably tied back to the Ti laws that give rise to them, ergo justifying the "kill or be killed" doctrines.

Azeroffs · 12-26-2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FDG

Mmmh. But, say, ESTjs are also really likely (perhaps more likely than ENTjs or INTps, from my perspective) to involuntarily promote that type of attitude towards work.

I think you have the wrong impression. Think ESE versus EIE. LSE more vigorously approaches work, but it's more for the sake of doing a good job rather than the ambitious 'dog eat dog' of an LIE. (at least in comparison)

I think I'm missing exactly what Delta does. They preserve. So what does that mean? They just continue what Gamma has created?

------------
Some of my thoughts:

I was thinking that whenever there is a rational value switch (Beta>Gamma , Delta>Alpha) a new line of thinking has occurred. When Beta crosses over to Gamma there is order, and when Delta crosses into Alpha there is chaos. When there is an irrational value switch a new line of application occurs. When Alpha crosses into Beta there is war, and when Gamma crosses into Delta there is peace.

(maybe those aren't good terms, but I think it gets the idea across)

Essentially each quadra carries two dicotomies in a sense, but is more characterized by the change

Alpha characterized by Chaos, but also peaceful.
Beta characterized by War, but also chaotic.
Gamma characterized by Order, but also war-like.
Delta characterized by Peace, but also ordered.

Also, I feel like it's focusing on characteristics of the logical types, but I could be wrong.

NeTi > SeTi > NiTe > SiTe

It makes me wonder if there could be some kind of dynamic for ethical types that might be somewhat different.

silverchris9 · 12-26-2009, 11:17 AM

I've been trying to figure out how to formulate this for a while, but I wanted to say that I think you didn't mention, Gilly, how much impact the beta "revolutionary" period has on the delta "peace" period. I find that the new stable conventions that delta introduces (the self-sustaining way of life, the "microcosm of perfection") tends to have much more in common, in ideals, beliefs, etc., with the beta revolution than with the previous delta "peace" (the pax del... tana?), even if it has more in common methodologically with the previous delta regime. I'm too lazy to think of historical examples right now, but I think that this is the lasting impact of the deltas and the betas on each other; no matter how alpha opens possibilities and gamma begins to refine, ultimately a beta "movement" is reacting to a delta "system", and the new delta "system" is built on (the remnants of) a beta "movement". While alpha introduces the new ideas, beta makes them a part of our lives to such a degree as to alter the imaginative possibilities, what we generally think is possible/normal/reasonable. Another way of saying this is to say that betas engender cultural change (or in general have engendered cultural change) at the fundamental level of what people expect or consider normal or within the realm of the "reasonable". Delta follows up and defends what is (now) "reasonable".

Also, I have an image of two pieces of fabric, right, and I see gamma stitching the fabric together, delta as the point when the two pieces of fabric are totally stitched together, alpha as the process of unstitching the fabric, and beta as the point when the two pieces of fabric are totally unstitched, apart, etc.

This relates to several things. First, it relates to the idea that I've developed that beta and delta are more extreme in conflict than gamma and alpha. That is largely based on evidence from observing people here, so obviously my sample size is tiny and my results will be skewed. But to me, alpha and gamma are just going in opposite directions. So, gamma tries to sew up, alpha tries to unsew, gamma whacks alpha on the hand and keeps going, alpha pouts then tries to sneak up and unsew it from under the table or something. Beta and delta on the other hand, have opposite assumptions about how things already are. Beta is shouting at delta: "look, things are totally apart," and delta is shouting at beta, "look, things are completely together," and they cannot possibly agree between the two of them. Beta and delta are no more or less opposites than gamma and alpha, but they are perhaps more extreme opposites (in some ways). Also, this relates to the beta and delta conceptual modes, imo, insofar as deltas tend to see the world with fewer tensions and disunites and struggles; we're all really the same, etc. etc. Betas, on the other hand, tend to see the world in more tensions, disunities, and struggles, except for philosophical or spiritual unity (monism), and even then the Unity of Being is then placed in a dichotomy against the Illusion of Difference/Becoming.

Also, I do want to take issue somewhat with the idea that the delta quadra as a whole tends to regard the past with suspicion. I have found that many deltas are of the conservative/traditionalist mindset, in which contemporary times are constantly compared to (somewhat idealized) past conditions, especially in the realm of morality. "back in the day," "I remember when," "used to be" are all phrases I associate with this mindset. Now, this could simply be weak Ni as opposed to unvalued Ni, or it could be that your definition needs a bit of refining (or it could be that my observation is off), to say something more akin to, "delta regards overarching interpretations of the past, or assumptions about historical trends with suspicion."

Also, while this was an extremely well-written and well-thought piece (and will probably at least moderately impact my understanding of socionics, going forward), I would like to see more application of this broad historical (yay Ni!) organization to more specific applications/interpretations/etc., about how this cycle, or the orientations that produce it, affect individuals and interpersonal affairs. For instance, how would a beta, who is focused on results, relate to a gamma who is focused on influence and/or power? That's a bad example, but I wanted to see more analysis tying this quadra succession stuff to how it plays out in one-on-one relationships and smaller group dynamics.

Also, you have a "function analysis" subheading over both the "beta" and "gamma" overall descriptions, which is probably a typo, since you provide the actually function analysis below those headings.

EDIT: Oh, and also, I know that beta is probably the most extreme quadra, but I don't necessarily think that everything is in tatters once we're done, or at least, we plant the seeds of a new order. But I guess beta, at its best, does ruin the old forms (ruin the sacred truths) of government, of politics, of "world order" or balance, of theology, of philosophy, of poetry, of whatever, but often on the basis of an interior logic. I mean, it's not just blind destruction. But I can see why you would argue that everything is broken and must be refused into a more... coherent system. I think that's the difference; beta is an incoherent system (operating on an internal logic), while delta is a coherent system (operating on an explicit logic, which requires unquestioned implicit assumptions).

Azeroffs · 12-26-2009, 11:55 AM

It seems to me that Alpha/Gammas have a more extreme way of thinking, and Beta/Deltas have a more extreme way of doing, which is kind of what I was trying to get at on my last post.

Brian · 12-26-2009, 12:12 PM

silverchris, you're screwing with dark forces. Latin Grammar is a demon of immense power, and cannot be tamed by the likes of you or I. No, it requires a summoner of immense talent and incorruptible motive, and even then, their sanity is at risk. Do you understand now? Can you now grasp the depths of horror that await you down the dark path you have taken the first steps towards?

silverchris9 · 12-26-2009, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coolanzon

silverchris, you're screwing with dark forces. Latin Grammar is a demon of immense power, and cannot be tamed by the likes of you or I. No, it requires a summoner of immense talent and incorruptible motive, and even then, their sanity is at risk. Do you understand now? Can you now grasp the depths of horror that await you down the dark path you have taken the first steps towards?

?

Brian · 12-26-2009, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverchris9

(the pax del... tana?)

I was referring to this.

silverchris9 · 12-26-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coolanzon

I was referring to this.

hahaha. That's funny. I wish I had gotten that joke the first time, because it would have been really funny if I'd gotten it at first.

Marie84 · 12-26-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FDG

Mmmh. But, say, ESTjs are also really likely (perhaps more likely than ENTjs or INTps, from my perspective) to involuntarily promote that type of attitude towards work.

My understanding of LSE's is that they tend to possess a tenacious attitude towards work, showing their aptitude in their skills and productivity to prove themselves worthy of achievements.
I think they get upset when people don't take notice of this, which leaves them feeling unappreciated, even more so if someone whom (they feel) is less worthy is promoted/recognized ahead of them.
So, basically, I think their goal is to be rewarded for their hard-work, not their status/position

Quote:

Also, I do want to take issue somewhat with the idea that the delta quadra as a whole tends to regard the past with suspicion. I have found that many deltas are of the conservative/traditionalist mindset, in which contemporary times are constantly compared to (somewhat idealized) past conditions, especially in the realm of morality. "back in the day," "I remember when," "used to be" are all phrases I associate with this mindset. Now, this could simply be weak Ni as opposed to unvalued Ni, or it could be that your definition needs a bit of refining (or it could be that my observation is off), to say something more akin to, "delta regards overarching interpretations of the past, or assumptions about historical trends with suspicion."

Yah I think it's more likely linked to weak Ni than quadra values.
My LSI father is extremely conservative in his positions, often making comments about the "good ol'days". Their weak Ni makes it hard for them to see the unfolding consequences behind their ideals

12-25-2009, 08:23 AM	#63 (permalink)
strrrng Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 7,298 Blog Entries: 11	You didn't get praise; the analysis did. __________________ I listen for the whisper of your sweet insanity while I formulate denials of your effect on me

12-26-2009, 11:17 AM	#74 (permalink)
silverchris9 wants to be a writer. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: New York Posts: 1,069 Blog Entries: 1	I've been trying to figure out how to formulate this for a while, but I wanted to say that I think you didn't mention, Gilly, how much impact the beta "revolutionary" period has on the delta "peace" period. I find that the new stable conventions that delta introduces (the self-sustaining way of life, the "microcosm of perfection") tends to have much more in common, in ideals, beliefs, etc., with the beta revolution than with the previous delta "peace" (the pax del... tana?), even if it has more in common methodologically with the previous delta regime. I'm too lazy to think of historical examples right now, but I think that this is the lasting impact of the deltas and the betas on each other; no matter how alpha opens possibilities and gamma begins to refine, ultimately a beta "movement" is reacting to a delta "system", and the new delta "system" is built on (the remnants of) a beta "movement". While alpha introduces the new ideas, beta makes them a part of our lives to such a degree as to alter the imaginative possibilities, what we generally think is possible/normal/reasonable. Another way of saying this is to say that betas engender cultural change (or in general have engendered cultural change) at the fundamental level of what people expect or consider normal or within the realm of the "reasonable". Delta follows up and defends what is (now) "reasonable". Also, I have an image of two pieces of fabric, right, and I see gamma stitching the fabric together, delta as the point when the two pieces of fabric are totally stitched together, alpha as the process of unstitching the fabric, and beta as the point when the two pieces of fabric are totally unstitched, apart, etc. This relates to several things. First, it relates to the idea that I've developed that beta and delta are more extreme in conflict than gamma and alpha. That is largely based on evidence from observing people here, so obviously my sample size is tiny and my results will be skewed. But to me, alpha and gamma are just going in opposite directions. So, gamma tries to sew up, alpha tries to unsew, gamma whacks alpha on the hand and keeps going, alpha pouts then tries to sneak up and unsew it from under the table or something. Beta and delta on the other hand, have opposite assumptions about how things already are. Beta is shouting at delta: "look, things are totally apart," and delta is shouting at beta, "look, things are completely together," and they cannot possibly agree between the two of them. Beta and delta are no more or less opposites than gamma and alpha, but they are perhaps more extreme opposites (in some ways). Also, this relates to the beta and delta conceptual modes, imo, insofar as deltas tend to see the world with fewer tensions and disunites and struggles; we're all really the same, etc. etc. Betas, on the other hand, tend to see the world in more tensions, disunities, and struggles, except for philosophical or spiritual unity (monism), and even then the Unity of Being is then placed in a dichotomy against the Illusion of Difference/Becoming. Also, I do want to take issue somewhat with the idea that the delta quadra as a whole tends to regard the past with suspicion. I have found that many deltas are of the conservative/traditionalist mindset, in which contemporary times are constantly compared to (somewhat idealized) past conditions, especially in the realm of morality. "back in the day," "I remember when," "used to be" are all phrases I associate with this mindset. Now, this could simply be weak Ni as opposed to unvalued Ni, or it could be that your definition needs a bit of refining (or it could be that my observation is off), to say something more akin to, "delta regards overarching interpretations of the past, or assumptions about historical trends with suspicion." Also, while this was an extremely well-written and well-thought piece (and will probably at least moderately impact my understanding of socionics, going forward), I would like to see more application of this broad historical (yay Ni!) organization to more specific applications/interpretations/etc., about how this cycle, or the orientations that produce it, affect individuals and interpersonal affairs. For instance, how would a beta, who is focused on results, relate to a gamma who is focused on influence and/or power? That's a bad example, but I wanted to see more analysis tying this quadra succession stuff to how it plays out in one-on-one relationships and smaller group dynamics. Also, you have a "function analysis" subheading over both the "beta" and "gamma" overall descriptions, which is probably a typo, since you provide the actually function analysis below those headings. EDIT: Oh, and also, I know that beta is probably the most extreme quadra, but I don't necessarily think that everything is in tatters once we're done, or at least, we plant the seeds of a new order. But I guess beta, at its best, does ruin the old forms (ruin the sacred truths) of government, of politics, of "world order" or balance, of theology, of philosophy, of poetry, of whatever, but often on the basis of an interior logic. I mean, it's not just blind destruction. But I can see why you would argue that everything is broken and must be refused into a more... coherent system. I think that's the difference; beta is an incoherent system (operating on an internal logic), while delta is a coherent system (operating on an explicit logic, which requires unquestioned implicit assumptions). __________________ IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best. Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music... I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong. Last edited by silverchris9; 12-26-2009 at 11:28 AM.

12-26-2009, 11:55 AM	#75 (permalink)
Azeroffs Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: California Posts: 903	It seems to me that Alpha/Gammas have a more extreme way of thinking, and Beta/Deltas have a more extreme way of doing, which is kind of what I was trying to get at on my last post. __________________ ENTj Ni-LIE 3w4 sp/sx 3w4-5w6-9w8 "Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." — CJ Keyser "You know, some people say life is short and that you could get hit by a bus at any moment and that you have to live each day like it's your last. Bullshit. Life is long. You're probably not gonna get hit by a bus. And you're gonna have to live with the choices you make for the next fifty years." — Chris Rock

12-26-2009, 12:12 PM	#76 (permalink)
Brian average American suit Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Perth, Australia Posts: 4,404 Blog Entries: 3	silverchris, you're screwing with dark forces. Latin Grammar is a demon of immense power, and cannot be tamed by the likes of you or I. No, it requires a summoner of immense talent and incorruptible motive, and even then, their sanity is at risk. Do you understand now? Can you now grasp the depths of horror that await you down the dark path you have taken the first steps towards? __________________ C-Bass Sounds... fishy. C/ Eclectic as a well-made pizza. 9w8-2w1-7w6 sx/so Hartman Yellow/Blue Oldham Mercurial/Self-Sacrificing Nohari

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12-25-2009, 08:21 AM	#62 (permalink)
Gilly you'll love me some day Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,916	I love how the one time I create a thread with selfless intentions and actually want to see something happen that doesn't revolve around me, I just get consistent, moderate praise. What the fuck is this world coming to?

12-25-2009, 09:41 AM	#64 (permalink)
Gilly you'll love me some day Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,916	Touche. But intellect is one of my primary fixations, so it shouldn't matter...but...;_;