Quadra Dynamics - Page 2

Gilly · 12-21-2009, 02:02 PM

Why thank you

Gilly · 12-21-2009, 04:15 PM

You people should actually TALK about this shit, too, instead of just praising me and saying you think I'm right. That would be a nice change.

redbaron · 12-21-2009, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilly

You people should actually TALK about this shit, too, instead of just praising me and saying you think I'm right. That would be a nice change.

no thanks. I'll stick to praising you and telling you you're right.

Gilly · 12-21-2009, 04:28 PM

redbaron · 12-21-2009, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilly

Sorry, I'm busy wrapping gifts, baking cookies and figuring out my life, thank you very much!

Gilly · 12-21-2009, 04:53 PM

Ok, you are pardoned. But everyone else has yet to meet the quota.

redbaron · 12-21-2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilly

Ok, you are pardoned. But everyone else has yet to meet the quota.

thanks Gilly.

Gilly · 12-21-2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbaron

thanks Gilly.

Anything for you, mon cheri.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akra

*raises eyebrow*

Is this supposed to be some sort of excuse for not having anything to say?

Gilly · 12-21-2009, 05:29 PM

...k...

Blaze · 12-21-2009, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilly

You people should actually TALK about this shit, too, instead of just praising me and saying you think I'm right. That would be a nice change.

i talked about it. you didn't respond.

i thought it was good, but needed just a bit of tweaking.

Blaze · 12-21-2009, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbaron

Sorry, I'm busy wrapping gifts, baking cookies and figuring out my life, thank you very much!

the gift wrapping is the real bitch. j/k

Gilly · 12-22-2009, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaze

beta isn't destroying anything; they're pushing to agenda. they're birthing the idea, creating things, pushing past any obstacle or opposition. the mission is not to destroy, rather to create and bring to fruition.

-

there's no collapse. beta has birthed the application and it's off the ground. there's a rough draft that has to be brought to order and efficiency.

To be quite frank, I think your ideas about quadra progression are somewhat naive, or at least overly optimistic. Large-scale societal change doesn't happen by people just pushing their agendas and "overcoming adversity;" drastic measures are necessary for drastic change. The reason Alpha cannot "push forward," and the reason Beta is necessary, is that Alphas have too much investment in the established order; it is this order that has given them the luxury to figure out all of these problems and find solutions and ways to improve. Beta's role in the socion is to destroy the established order, or at least disrupt it sufficiently, and make room for something new.

Blaze · 12-22-2009, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilly

To be quite frank, I think your ideas about quadra progression are somewhat naive, or at least overly optimistic. Large-scale societal change doesn't happen by people just pushing their agendas and "overcoming adversity;" drastic measures are necessary for drastic change. The reason Alpha cannot "push forward," and the reason Beta is necessary, is that Alphas have too much investment in the established order; it is this order that has given them the luxury to figure out all of these problems and find solutions and ways to improve. Beta's role in the socion is to destroy the established order, or at least disrupt it sufficiently, and make room for something new.

you're wrong and you're not listening and i am absolutely not naive. you know how much shit i've seen? please.

large scale societal change happens at the grassroots level in a democratic society. where do you think that beta gets the ideology to drive their reforms? you have to have a clearly thought out ideology if you're going to effectively motivate large groups of people to not only support your cause but take substantial risk in order to do so. if you're going to make sweeping statements about social change, you had better back them up with a concrete example.

it may be betas goal to disrupt, but the golden thread that people will really buy into is based on ideas.

with alpha, it's not about willingness to disrupt it's about what the role is: to figure out new ideas. to study things and improve them. as i said before, this is a time consuming endeavor. just because alphas depend on the status quo to carry out their role does not meant that they aren't ready for it to be substantially changed.

Gilly · 12-22-2009, 03:04 PM

I said your ideas were naive; not you. Take a chill pill sister.

None of what you've said contradicts any of what I've written in any way. You're just taking this personally.

I agree that the "golden thread" as you say, has nothing to do with disruption; disruption is simply a necessary part of the cycle, and it is Beta's role to disrupt, to create room for change, just like it is Alpha's role to spur progress and bring new things to the table. Alpha envisions change and sets it in motion, Beta begins to implement it and clears the way, Gamma re-organizes and optimizes, and Delta stabilizes.

For example, Karl Marx, probably an ILE, wrote the Communist Manifesto, arguable the most influential book written in the last 300 years in terms of its impact. Millions of people devote their lives to implementing his ideas. Wars have been fought, regimes overthrown; if you think about it, Marx has put up the biggest fight of anyone against the greater superpower the world has ever known. He belonged to numerous academic circles, published books, and wrote newspaper articles. He was a brilliant man, far ahead of his time. But he never could have started a revolution; it simply wasn't his place. He didn't have the connections, or the influence during his life time. He was a philosopher; he wasn't writing because he wanted to start a massive upheaval, but rather because he wanted to get a message out, to get people thinking. His ideas required someone like Lenin, for whom the ends justified the means, who involved himself and pushed people from thinking to doing, who was willing to throw away everything else about his life and devote himself to this one pursuit.

I'm not saying "all alphas are pussies who are suckered into the system and all they are good for is whatever comes out of them." That would be trite, overly categorical, and stupid, but it seems to be the manner in which you think I meant it, so please believe me when I say I'm not that simple. What I'm saying is that these are archetypal tendencies that help dictate the types' natural roles, both social and concrete, and, although they manifest differently in each individual, they do have an influence on how a person treats their life.

Blaze · 12-22-2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

I said your ideas were naive; not you.

point taken; didn't look carefully enough.

Quote:

Take a chill pill sister.

i'm already freezing it's 15 degrees here.

Quote:

None of what you've said contradicts any of what I've written in any way. You're just taking this personally.

no i am not taking anything you're saying personally i'm responding to the thread and many others where you seem to think that beta is the only quadra that does anything worthwhile. you originally posted that alpha does not have the willingness to fight and i was challenging that notion.

Quote:

I agree that the "golden thread" as you say, has nothing to do with disruption; disruption is simply a necessary part of the cycle, and it is Beta's role to disrupt, to create room for change, just like it is Alpha's role to spur progress and bring new things to the table. Alpha envisions change and sets it in motion, Beta begins to implement it and clears the way, Gamma re-organizes and optimizes, and Delta stabilizes.

yes; we've reached an accord. you show all the signs of growth here.

Quote:

For example, Karl Marx, probably an ILE, wrote the Communist Manifesto, arguable the most influential book written in the last 300 years in terms of its impact. Millions of people devote their lives to implementing his ideas. Wars have been fought, regimes overthrown; if you think about it, Marx has put up the biggest fight of anyone against the greater superpower the world has ever known. He belonged to numerous academic circles, published books, and wrote newspaper articles. He was a brilliant man, far ahead of his time. But he never could have started a revolution; it simply wasn't his place. He didn't have the connections, or the influence during his life time. He was a philosopher; he wasn't writing because he wanted to start a massive upheaval, but rather because he wanted to get a message out, to get people thinking. His ideas required someone like Lenin, for whom the ends justified the means, who involved himself and pushed people from thinking to doing, who was willing to throw away everything else about his life and devote himself to this one pursuit.

*slam dunk* good deal.

Quote:

I'm not saying "all alphas are pussies who are suckered into the system and all they are good for is whatever comes out of them." That would be trite, overly categorical, and stupid, but it seems to be the manner in which you think I meant it, so please believe me when I say I'm not that simple. What I'm saying is that these are archetypal tendencies that help dictate the types' natural roles, both social and concrete, and, although they manifest differently in each individual, they do have an influence on how a person treats their life.

i did think that was what you were saying. i feel so much better now though

Gilly · 12-22-2009, 06:40 PM

I mean, I can accept that perhaps I aggrandize my own quadra, partly because I, like any human, am egocentric, and am prone to see my own role as the most important one. But I would rather you simply said up front that rather than trying to reframe everything I said

In any case I'm glad we're on the same page.

I don't think my initial description was all that biased; maybe the part about transition from Alpha could use a little temperance. What phrases in particular, if any, made you see it that way?

strrrng · 12-22-2009, 07:19 PM

Ultimately, a beta saying that alphas are hesitant to act on their ideas is no different than an alpha claiming that betas don't examine a wide enough scope of ideas. It's not that either quadra is incapable of it, just that the natural tendencies impel them towards one end of the spectrum more than the other. When betas criticize alphas' lack of initiative, it isn't because they believe alphas to be incapable of direct implementation; it's because they aren't able to activate them in the way they deem necessary for success. Big deal if it's delivered unpleasantly.

redbaron · 12-22-2009, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strrrng

Ultimately, a beta saying that alphas are hesitant to act on their ideas is no different than an alpha claiming that betas don't examine a wide enough scope of ideas. It's not that either quadra is incapable of it, just that the natural tendencies impel them towards one end of the spectrum more than the other. When betas criticize alphas' lack of initiative, it isn't because they believe alphas to be incapable of direct implementation; it's because they aren't able to activate them in the way they deem necessary for success. Big deal if it's delivered unpleasantly.

I think this is probably right.

Gilly · 12-22-2009, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strrrng

Ultimately, a beta saying that alphas are hesitant to act on their ideas is no different than an alpha claiming that betas don't examine a wide enough scope of ideas. It's not that either quadra is incapable of it, just that the natural tendencies impel them towards one end of the spectrum more than the other. When betas criticize alphas' lack of initiative, it isn't because they believe alphas to be incapable of direct implementation; it's because they aren't able to activate them in the way they deem necessary for success. Big deal if it's delivered unpleasantly.

This.

Blaze · 12-23-2009, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strrrng

Ultimately, a beta saying that alphas are hesitant to act on their ideas is no different than an alpha claiming that betas don't examine a wide enough scope of ideas. It's not that either quadra is incapable of it, just that the natural tendencies impel them towards one end of the spectrum more than the other. When betas criticize alphas' lack of initiative, it isn't because they believe alphas to be incapable of direct implementation; it's because they aren't able to activate them in the way they deem necessary for success. Big deal if it's delivered unpleasantly.

alphas don't expect betas to examine a wide enough scope of ideas. that's alpha's job not beta's. alphas don't hesitate about actions that are the job of alpha. are you saying that beta expects alpha to help them with their job?

12-21-2009, 02:02 PM	#21 (permalink)
Gilly Pure Join Date: Nov 2005 Sociotype: EIE-Ni 3w4 sx/so Posts: 17,841	Why thank you __________________ discojoe: I don't feel like I'm really debating when I do it. It feels like reformatting a hard drive that shouts curses at me.

12-21-2009, 04:15 PM	#22 (permalink)
Gilly Pure Join Date: Nov 2005 Sociotype: EIE-Ni 3w4 sx/so Posts: 17,841	You people should actually TALK about this shit, too, instead of just praising me and saying you think I'm right. That would be a nice change. __________________ discojoe: I don't feel like I'm really debating when I do it. It feels like reformatting a hard drive that shouts curses at me.

12-21-2009, 04:28 PM	#24 (permalink)
Gilly Pure Join Date: Nov 2005 Sociotype: EIE-Ni 3w4 sx/so Posts: 17,841	__________________ discojoe: I don't feel like I'm really debating when I do it. It feels like reformatting a hard drive that shouts curses at me.

12-21-2009, 04:53 PM	#26 (permalink)
Gilly Pure Join Date: Nov 2005 Sociotype: EIE-Ni 3w4 sx/so Posts: 17,841	Ok, you are pardoned. But everyone else has yet to meet the quota. __________________ discojoe: I don't feel like I'm really debating when I do it. It feels like reformatting a hard drive that shouts curses at me.

12-21-2009, 05:29 PM	#29 (permalink)
Gilly Pure Join Date: Nov 2005 Sociotype: EIE-Ni 3w4 sx/so Posts: 17,841	...k... __________________ discojoe: I don't feel like I'm really debating when I do it. It feels like reformatting a hard drive that shouts curses at me.

12-22-2009, 03:04 PM	#34 (permalink)
Gilly Pure Join Date: Nov 2005 Sociotype: EIE-Ni 3w4 sx/so Posts: 17,841	I said your ideas were naive; not you. Take a chill pill sister. None of what you've said contradicts any of what I've written in any way. You're just taking this personally. I agree that the "golden thread" as you say, has nothing to do with disruption; disruption is simply a necessary part of the cycle, and it is Beta's role to disrupt, to create room for change, just like it is Alpha's role to spur progress and bring new things to the table. Alpha envisions change and sets it in motion, Beta begins to implement it and clears the way, Gamma re-organizes and optimizes, and Delta stabilizes. For example, Karl Marx, probably an ILE, wrote the Communist Manifesto, arguable the most influential book written in the last 300 years in terms of its impact. Millions of people devote their lives to implementing his ideas. Wars have been fought, regimes overthrown; if you think about it, Marx has put up the biggest fight of anyone against the greater superpower the world has ever known. He belonged to numerous academic circles, published books, and wrote newspaper articles. He was a brilliant man, far ahead of his time. But he never could have started a revolution; it simply wasn't his place. He didn't have the connections, or the influence during his life time. He was a philosopher; he wasn't writing because he wanted to start a massive upheaval, but rather because he wanted to get a message out, to get people thinking. His ideas required someone like Lenin, for whom the ends justified the means, who involved himself and pushed people from thinking to doing, who was willing to throw away everything else about his life and devote himself to this one pursuit. I'm not saying "all alphas are pussies who are suckered into the system and all they are good for is whatever comes out of them." That would be trite, overly categorical, and stupid, but it seems to be the manner in which you think I meant it, so please believe me when I say I'm not that simple. What I'm saying is that these are archetypal tendencies that help dictate the types' natural roles, both social and concrete, and, although they manifest differently in each individual, they do have an influence on how a person treats their life. __________________ discojoe: I don't feel like I'm really debating when I do it. It feels like reformatting a hard drive that shouts curses at me.

12-22-2009, 06:40 PM	#36 (permalink)
Gilly Pure Join Date: Nov 2005 Sociotype: EIE-Ni 3w4 sx/so Posts: 17,841	I mean, I can accept that perhaps I aggrandize my own quadra, partly because I, like any human, am egocentric, and am prone to see my own role as the most important one. But I would rather you simply said up front that rather than trying to reframe everything I said In any case I'm glad we're on the same page. I don't think my initial description was all that biased; maybe the part about transition from Alpha could use a little temperance. What phrases in particular, if any, made you see it that way? __________________ discojoe: I don't feel like I'm really debating when I do it. It feels like reformatting a hard drive that shouts curses at me.

12-22-2009, 07:19 PM	#37 (permalink)
strrrng eyeball Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 7,510 Blog Entries: 11	Ultimately, a beta saying that alphas are hesitant to act on their ideas is no different than an alpha claiming that betas don't examine a wide enough scope of ideas. It's not that either quadra is incapable of it, just that the natural tendencies impel them towards one end of the spectrum more than the other. When betas criticize alphas' lack of initiative, it isn't because they believe alphas to be incapable of direct implementation; it's because they aren't able to activate them in the way they deem necessary for success. Big deal if it's delivered unpleasantly. __________________ we do not speak to each other, because we know too much

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