"immoral" INFjs - Page 4

silverchris9 · 03-12-2010, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by consentingadult

I don't know what type I am, however, IEE seems to make the most sense based on dynamics of interpersonal relationships.

"Pattern recognition" is indeed related to "intuition", though not per sé in the Socionics sense. My free-floating thoughts on pattern recognition:

Ne: pattern recognition based on genus/differentia attributes of two or more phenomena
Ni: pattern recognition based on cause/effect relationships between two or more phenomena

So yeah, Ni imo is one of the attitudes that perceives reality in terms of pattern recognition, more in particular cause/effect patterns. And as such, does not require knowledge of all facts in order to come to conclusions.

I got this idea from a program on Discovery or Nat Geo channel, or something like that. It investigated certain metal attitudes, and investigated what it was that made grandmaster chess players so good at chess. A lot of people think grand masters are very good thinkers, being able to come up with a strategy. But research has shown that this is not the case, and that many grand masters decide upon their strategies because they perceive almost instantly that a pattern unfolds in front of them. So the thing that makes grand masters good at chess, is not logical thinking, but intuition.

ETA: in the past I have been pondering the question if not every information Element in Socionics is a form of pattern recognition, but I have not been able to answer that question satisfactory.

Huh. Interesting ideas. As far as all IEs being related to patterns, my theory for Se at least is that most of the properties ascribed to Se by socionics are actually results of the "core" of Se which is attachment to sensory data with no mental manipulation/change, which means Se egos, unlike the rest of us, exist in a very, very concrete, solid, believable world. I actually arrange all the perceiving functions along a scale from most concrete (Se) to most abstract (Ni), with the assumption that S is more concrete than N, and E is more concrete than I (insofar as the external world is more concrete than the internal world). But that's pretty unrelated.

Patterns based on cause and effect does make sense for Ni. Also interesting is that it works both ways; it's discerning effects from causes, but also causes from effects (in the sense of the insight into people aspect of Ni + Fe, or constructing a story of how some evidence occurred aspect of Ni + Te).

Typhon · 03-12-2010, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lobo

Have you encountered those? I've been noticing the gradual change in me when it comes to morality... Slowly, I don't see things as being "good" or "bad" anymore, and I've had people question my morality/stance on some issues. There's something about stress and pressure that makes you question some issues about morality. It's like I'm venturing into a place that is foreign to me, since I used to have a defined point of view morality when it came to situations, and was able to reach a conclusion rather quickly about what is the correct/wrong thing to do. I'm sure of being a good/nice guy though, but it's like I am slowly being able to separate more and more actions from "the person within," maybe this is an Fi development issue, idk. I've noticed recently how this might be different than someone who has Fi polr, who might automatically judge a person's character based on their actions, and not see the person within. At least this has been my experience with an ILE recently. The point is, I wonder if people find this kind of thing disappointing when they know an EII like that.

Im not sure what you mean when you speak of "moral" and "immmoral" people since I dont see people as being moral or immoral.

But I the person I hate the most in the world is an EII. She was so mean to me and profited from me just to please our ENTj teacher that its almost unbeleivable. Im not saying all IEIs are like this though most of them are cool just not this girl.

consentingadult · 03-12-2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverchris9

Huh. Interesting ideas. As far as all IEs being related to patterns, my theory for Se at least is that most of the properties ascribed to Se by socionics are actually results of the "core" of Se which is attachment to sensory data with no mental manipulation/change, which means Se egos, unlike the rest of us, exist in a very, very concrete, solid, believable world. I actually arrange all the perceiving functions along a scale from most concrete (Se) to most abstract (Ni), with the assumption that S is more concrete than N, and E is more concrete than I (insofar as the external world is more concrete than the internal world). But that's pretty unrelated.

Patterns based on cause and effect does make sense for Ni. Also interesting is that it works both ways; it's discerning effects from causes, but also causes from effects (in the sense of the insight into people aspect of Ni + Fe, or constructing a story of how some evidence occurred aspect of Ni + Te).

You story about Se reminds me of what Ayn Rand once wrote in "Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology" (for what that book is actually worth), where she discerned between sensations, perceptions (automatic integrations of sensations, if I recall correctly) and concepts (abstractions from perceptions). Which leads us to the

Problem_of_induction

, which in turn makes me think about Ne and Ni as forms of induction. But wait, wasn't induction a form of logical reasoning?? And if so, is it Te or Ti

silverchris9 · 03-12-2010, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by consentingadult

You story about Se reminds me of what Ayn Rand once wrote in "Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology" (for what that book is actually worth), where she discerned between sensations, perceptions (automatic integrations of sensations, if I recall correctly) and concepts (abstractions from perceptions). Which leads us to the Problem of Induction, which in turn makes me think about Ne and Ni as forms of induction. But wait, wasn't induction a form of logical reasoning?? And if so, is it Te or Ti

Hmmm... that actually makes an awful lot of sense to me. In that case, Si would be sensations, Se would be perceptions, and Ni and Ne would both be abstractions, although I consider Ni to be abstractions of abstractions, insofar as it is abstractions about how abstract entities relate over time (that is, how a particular type of "anger" reacts with a particular set of "verbal responses"--both of these as generalized concepts, not as their particular manifestations at the time and moment). lol @ induction should be Ti or Te. I think that actually all the functions could be described as inductive or deductive (or maybe that all the functions can act both deductively and inductively), really, but yeah, of course anything related to logic must be Ti or Te, so that's out.

.

Ryu · 03-12-2010, 08:59 PM

(EIIs who've been naughty need spankings)

Shagbag The Wizard · 03-13-2010, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryu

(EIIs who've been naughty need spankings)

What gets me is that Ryu's responses, like that, strike me as EXTREMELY the same way that beta STs respond to things. That response in and of itself makes reminds me of a SLE who is excited when it starts to see a need to get a response out of someone who is otherwise reserved - an EII, so to say.

Ryu · 03-13-2010, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard

What gets me is that Ryu's responses, like that, strike me as EXTREMELY the same way that beta STs respond to things. That response in and of itself makes reminds me of a SLE who is excited when it starts to see a need to get a response out of someone who is otherwise reserved - an EII, so to say.

I'm an SLE according to Marista.

The difference is that I say things like that after I know someone or an comfortable with a situation. The thing is, IEIs like it a lot when I act that way and expect me to be that way all the time, which is annoying. They don't get how I can just be that way for 'fun'.

Which is more why I felt weird about you, because you seem to be more that way first and as a primary way of being, rather than something fun. But, I can see some EIis who are somewhat more that way, particularly the Ne-subtypes.

I don't like it when beta NFs try to pressure me to be that way or try to draw it out of me - it's annoying. But when it comes up on my own and is organic, that's what I like - and the delta NFs are much better at allowing that to happen by providing relational / 'ethical' stability or goodness.
~"Relax and have fun with your 8th function"~

Maritsa33 · 03-13-2010, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryu

I'm an SLE according to Marista.

The difference is that I say things like that after I know someone or an comfortable with a situation. The thing is, IEIs like it a lot when I act that way and expect me to be that way all the time, which is annoying. They don't get how I can just be that way for 'fun'.

Which is more why I felt weird about you, because you seem to be more that way first and as a primary way of being, rather than something fun. But, I can see some EIis who are somewhat more that way, particularly the Ne-subtypes.

There are no subtypes.

Ryu · 03-13-2010, 05:31 AM

IVE ABANDONED MY CHILD

Quote:

There are no subtypes.

IVE ABANDONED MY CHILD
IVE ABANDONED MY BOY

Maritsa33 · 03-13-2010, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryu

[CENTER][I][FONT=Century Gothic][B][SIZE=7]IVE A

What does your message mean?

Ryu · 03-13-2010, 05:44 AM

It is a play on a movie where there are people who are somewhat "forcing" confessions from each other. I haven't seen all of it yet, though.

Maritsa33 · 03-13-2010, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryu

It is a play on a movie where there are people who are somewhat "forcing" confessions from each other. I haven't seen all of it yet, though.

Why are you using it on me?

Ryu · 03-13-2010, 06:05 AM

I found it personally humorous to relate your statement that there are no subtypes to a movie where people where two people 'forced' confessions from each other, the confessions were made in a way that was pleasing to the ego of the other person.

So I thought it was humorous for you to tell me there are no subtypes, and picturing it in a way that made it seem like you wanted to save me and bring me to enlightenment about socionics.

"confess that there are no subtypes"
"THERE ARE NO SUBTYPES, THERE ARE NO SUBTYPES... etc"

Shagbag The Wizard · 03-13-2010, 06:23 AM

Lol, Ryu.......I was pulling your leg. *chuckles*

But yeah, I can totally see what you're saying, and that kind of Se behaviour is definitely more tolerable to me because it's controlled and predictable, being used appropriately rather than all the time, which would annoy the crap out of me (which is the way it *usually* ends up with SLEs).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryu

Which is more why I felt weird about you, because you seem to be more that way first and as a primary way of being, rather than something fun. But, I can see some EIis who are somewhat more that way, particularly the Ne-subtypes.

I can see how it came across that way in my first couple of threads.

However, as I think I've now shown, this is not my primary way of being, per se. While looking back at my first threads, I was trying to figure out why I felt compelled to be so Fe. And I think the answer is that I used it initially as a kind of buffer to shield myself from "anticipated" oncoming negativity/rejection/criticism etc which is very, very stressful for EIIs, certainly for me.

I've also realised, upon further reflection, that I actually do this A LOT when meeting new people, putting on an outward show of Fe/Se in the beginning. It's almost as if I'm trying to keep them blinded to the real me, at least until I've had enough time to study them and decide to what level they can be trusted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryu

I don't like it when beta NFs try to pressure me to be that way or try to draw it out of me - it's annoying. But when it comes up on my own and is organic, that's what I like - and the delta NFs are much better at allowing that to happen by providing relational / 'ethical' stability or goodness.

Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I definitely, definitely do not make any attempt to draw people into a state of emotion that they are not naturally in the mood for. This feels too much like imposing my will on others, which is entirely repulsive to me.

Now that I think of it, the IEIs in my life do this ALL THE TIME, trying to get me to liven up etc. when I am just not in the mood. Which does become highly irritating to me.

Ryu · 03-13-2010, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard

Lol, Ryu.......I was pulling your leg. *chuckles*

..I was aware..

Loki · 03-13-2010, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard

I've also realised, upon further reflection, that I actually do this A LOT when meeting new people, putting on an outward show of Fe/Se in the beginning. It's almost as if I'm trying to keep them blinded to the real me, at least until I've had enough time to study them and decide to what level they can be trusted.

I just had to voice my skepticism. I too am skeptical that you are EII. I can't see an EII making a show of Fe and Se when they meet people (I've generally noticed that EIIs rarely display much Fe, and they have *no* Se and would totally fail at making a show of it). As a possible fixer-upper solution that might not be your actual type but would make more sense to me, I would suggest Fi creative (XEE) over Fi leading. IEEs for instance can be very "introverted" seeming (and some may see themselves as introverts, and may be in the standard non-Socionics definition of the word) and can make a show of Fe/Se as Fe is the 8th function for them and Se is their role and does come out sometimes. I could see an IEE being this way when meeting new people 100x easier than I could see it of an EII. Anyway, I kinda think you're either XEE or EIE for the most part. I can see the arguments for you being an Fe type, but I'm not really sure one way or the other on that due to my own deficiencies in recognizing Fe vs. Fi. (I can't say it's impossible you're EII or anything, I'm just really skeptical of it.) /out of nowhere post

Ryu · 03-13-2010, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loki

I just had to voice my skepticism. I too am skeptical that you are EII. I can't see an EII making a show of Fe and Se when they meet people (I've generally noticed that EIIs rarely display much Fe, and they have *no* Se and would totally fail at making a show of it). As a possible fixer-upper solution that might not be your actual type but would make more sense to me, I would suggest Fi creative (XEE) over Fi leading. IEEs for instance can be very "introverted" seeming (and some may see themselves as introverts, and may be in the standard non-Socionics definition of the word) and can make a show of Fe/Se as Fe is the 8th function for them and Se is their role and does come out sometimes. I could see an IEE being this way when meeting new people 100x easier than I could see it of an EII. Anyway, I kinda think you're either XEE or EIE for the most part. I can see the arguments for you being an Fe type, but I'm not really sure one way or the other on that due to my own deficiencies in recognizing Fe vs. Fi. (I can't say it's impossible you're EII or anything, I'm just really skeptical of it.) /out of nowhere post

It's a good post.
There seems to be a lot of 'something' going on.
I think even more questionable than EII for Shag is the typing of E5.
And I could see a Fi-IEE acting somewhat similar.

I have seen EII-Ne's act somewhat similar in terms of trying to foster a sense of positive relationships, but, I feel something slightly different from that.

That said, I have less problems now seeing EII, than before, when it comes to trying to talk to Shag in different situations (PM). When the contradictions between how he says he is and says he acts, and how he is actually acting, is resolved, that will be when I feel more comfortable about his typing, whatever it is. I feel like something is mixed up somewhere.

Ryu · 03-13-2010, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard

However, as I think I've now shown, this is not my primary way of being, per se. While looking back at my first threads, I was trying to figure out why I felt compelled to be so Fe. And I think the answer is that I used it initially as a kind of buffer to shield myself from "anticipated" oncoming negativity/rejection/criticism etc which is very, very stressful for EIIs, certainly for me.

I've also realised, upon further reflection, that I actually do this A LOT when meeting new people, putting on an outward show of Fe/Se in the beginning. It's almost as if I'm trying to keep them blinded to the real me, at least until I've had enough time to study them and decide to what level they can be trusted.

This makes some sense. I know an EII-Ne (probably 4w3) who was very much that way, although more so focusing on pleasantries to disarm people. I guess it's also similar to Christy B who may be the same typings. But those EIIs, imo, acted that way out of social uneasiness, as a sort of disarming strategy. And they felt they were personally very awkward when it came to such things, and seem to, ultimately, prefer to not be that way.

But at the same time, they seemed to get into trouble because they kept trying to be 'pleasing' to other people by being a certain way and inviting things that they were not particularly up for. It's almost catering way too much to other people. It strikes me as an EII trying to be IEI or trying to be E3 when they really don't want to be deep down, but still use that strategy as some sort of coping mechanism for dealing with social situations.

Quote:

Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I definitely, definitely do not make any attempt to draw people into a state of emotion that they are not naturally in the mood for. This feels too much like imposing my will on others, which is entirely repulsive to me.

Now that I think of it, the IEIs in my life do this ALL THE TIME, trying to get me to liven up etc. when I am just not in the mood. Which does become highly irritating to me.

I can't really tell if you are trying to pull it out of me or not. That's what is tricky. I read what you say about yourself and I try to believe that, but, it's just weird when you act the way you do.

Why do you think IEIs do it "all the time", and why do you see yourself as being different from them?

Shagbag The Wizard · 03-13-2010, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryu

And they felt they were personally very awkward when it came to such things, and seem to, ultimately, prefer to not be that way.

But at the same time, they seemed to get into trouble because they kept trying to be 'pleasing' to other people by being a certain way and inviting things that they were not particularly up for. It's almost catering way too much to other people.

Yes, YES!!! +1000

Ryu · 03-13-2010, 07:04 AM

Other than "just trusting you" (which I can do but is only so much), the only way for me to feel like I know that is really the case is to interact more with you over time. It's a matter of figuring out what the real you is. There's just no short cut in that sense, for me - especially because I tend to take a while to feel relationally comfortable with (brand new) people anyway.

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03-12-2010, 08:59 PM	#65 (permalink)
Ryu Delta Force Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: zavershitelem Sociotype: LSE\|ESTj Enneatype: 8w9 Posts: 8,926 Blog Entries: 47	(EIIs who've been naughty need spankings)

03-13-2010, 05:44 AM	#71 (permalink)
Ryu Delta Force Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: zavershitelem Sociotype: LSE\|ESTj Enneatype: 8w9 Posts: 8,926 Blog Entries: 47	It is a play on a movie where there are people who are somewhat "forcing" confessions from each other. I haven't seen all of it yet, though.

03-13-2010, 06:05 AM	#73 (permalink)
Ryu Delta Force Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: zavershitelem Sociotype: LSE\|ESTj Enneatype: 8w9 Posts: 8,926 Blog Entries: 47	I found it personally humorous to relate your statement that there are no subtypes to a movie where people where two people 'forced' confessions from each other, the confessions were made in a way that was pleasing to the ego of the other person. So I thought it was humorous for you to tell me there are no subtypes, and picturing it in a way that made it seem like you wanted to save me and bring me to enlightenment about socionics. "confess that there are no subtypes" "THERE ARE NO SUBTYPES, THERE ARE NO SUBTYPES... etc"

03-13-2010, 07:04 AM	#80 (permalink)
Ryu Delta Force Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: zavershitelem Sociotype: LSE\|ESTj Enneatype: 8w9 Posts: 8,926 Blog Entries: 47	Other than "just trusting you" (which I can do but is only so much), the only way for me to feel like I know that is really the case is to interact more with you over time. It's a matter of figuring out what the real you is. There's just no short cut in that sense, for me - especially because I tend to take a while to feel relationally comfortable with (brand new) people anyway.