Allie

Lol. Actually, that's sort of true.

Ahahah. Yeah, it's kind of arrogant to me. Like, oh boy, are you going to be my big knight-in-shining-armor? Give me a break.

I guess that's where we differ, because I always know whether I want something or not.

I'm sorry, but this just feels like “coffee = sex” mentality. Don't assume I want you just because I let you dance with me. K? lol

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whatever he might have denied me was unimportant; it was the fact that he could deny me anything at all, even what i didn't want.

calenwen

Talking about it is what kills me. He actually asked if it was too soon and then went on and kissed her anyway? I would be pissed if he did that, but why even ask if you're going to do it anyway - it just makes it even worse, like you're openly contradicting the other person's wishes.

I always know if I want it or not too and if I don't I have no problem saying so. I know girls that have ended up dating guys just because the guy was kind of sneaky about it and the girl was too passive to make much of a fuss out of it. Ugh, there seems to be this whole mentality about "getting girls" that certain guys have and I just absolutely hate it and will have nothing to do with it. Sirena's story just reminded me of guys that are like that I guess.

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Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
John Muir

Allie

Yeah, there was something else annoying about it that I couldn't quite pinpoint and this is it. It feels like such a sloppy relationship too, hah. He asks, “Are we going too fast?” She says yes. Then he speeds it up and she allows it? She admits she wanted it anyway? He knew all along? I don't know, something about it bothers me.

I can't imagine “passively” dating someone. Is there also “passive” attraction and “passive” feelings to go with it? God, I don't get that. I can't be in relationships that I'm not emotionally committed to.

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whatever he might have denied me was unimportant; it was the fact that he could deny me anything at all, even what i didn't want.

Sirena

that's hot, Allie!

Nah, it doesn't work that way. It isn't as simple as action 1 leads to action 2. Come on! That would bore SLEs in 2 seconds. On the contrary, there is so much dynamic to it that makes it so fun, intriguing and exciting. We can be rather enigmatic and alluring, just naturally (meaning that it's not a purposeful "manipulation"). We dictate as much if not more because we hold the emotional thermostat. Don't think we just stand there the whole night like doormats lol. There are lots of signals going on, but they're all unspoken and dynamic. This is probably Fe vs. Fi valuing.

Again, I'd like to stress this isn't a conscious thing. I know some people don't get it and are probably going to get a completely twisted picture of what I'm trying to describe and picture us as black widow spiders or something lol.

Eh, I'm always disappointment with the product of my trying to explain what I'm thinking/feeling. I can never quite capture it. Oh well.

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Sirena

I can't believe this is what you guys got from that. *sigh* Because that's so not it. Again, not doormats!

Anyway, I'm tired....

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jewels

OMG LOL!! I've never heard of the coffee=sex mentality, but it sounds like it could be a new online dating site....coffeeEqualsSex.com "where that latte means he's taking you home latter..."

I mean, if he buys you a mocha, really, what else could you expect?

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Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

Allie

No, I get what you mean. I just don't like it. I don't want someone going off of assumed, non-verbal cues. I don't really see the point in making a game out of it.

Ahaha, it's so common though:

BBC - The Editors: Guaranteed to divide

Coffee’ doesn’t mean coffee! ‘Coffee’ means sex! Café Crem

I think it's the same thing with prom. You know how it's like a common expectation for girls to “put out” on prom night? Ew, lol. “I bought you a corsage, do I get laid now??”

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whatever he might have denied me was unimportant; it was the fact that he could deny me anything at all, even what i didn't want.

Diana

Sirena, fwiw it does sound hot. And I get how that would be exciting. Definitely a lot can go on non-verbally, and that kind of chemistry is part of it. The reactions are strange, imo, as though people are personally offended by something that was pretty awesome between the two of you.

I can't imagine a guy trying that scenario on me, but I can definitely see how well that could work between your personality and his, and it's cool. Having that kind of dynamic, where you just work, where you play off of each other is the best.

After all, we're talking about love and romance and sexual compatibility, not a business deal or something. There's got to be passion, and excitement, and if you're afraid to push each other's boundaries to some extent, then it's far too cold.

And that's all you'll get out of me.

Akra

Hmm...I was thinking about this scenario, and yeah it seems really asshole-ish on paper. But then I realized that, at least from how I'd experience it, it's kind of a two-tiered checkpoint thing. If the feelings/instinct of the moment (which I'm not sure could actually be captured on paper at all) were right, I'd probably melt too, even if technically it was my direct input seemingly disregarded. If I didn't have feelings for the person, of course I'd hate it and it wouldn't "clear" to the next perception in me.

But if I did have feelings, it'd kind of be neutralized as a non-issue at the next "checkpoint"? And clearing THAT would probably intensify my feelings for the person, if I felt that they went ahead and did it because they understood what I couldn't say. (Talking about stuff like this in real life is way too blush/stammer/generally acting like a social retard-inducing.) And that's why it's not a game--it's just how I AM.

It just reminds me a whole lot of the couple real life courtships I've been in, especially my first. I was a freshman in high school, and basically was unconvinced the guy could possibly be interested in me. (He was an ES??-- an Eagle Scout/eventual Drum Major/football player and wrestler, but also a goofball.) I tip-toed around him a lot, with my friend saying he was interested in me and me not believing her, and her telling me I should ask him to the girls' choice dance and me being unwilling to. Eventually after a ton of assurance/nagging from her I did, he said yes. Our first kiss and whatnot was kind of similar--taking me by surprise (though I hadn't said it was too fast or anything, it just kind of happened immediately after he paid me a compliment and I spun my head to look at him.)

My online courtships have had an entirely different feel, since even if I will hesitate I'm more likely to initiate in this sphere...

Hope I didn't ninja-jack/butt in too much. Just kind of get what you're saying, I think.

Ritella

Fwiw, I agree with Diana and Sirena. It sounded like something you'd see in a movie or read in a 19th century novel. I don't understand why, whenever someone posts about liking any kind of male assertiveness, there are always these "sounds like rape"/"you are being held a prisoner!" comments. (not that these were necc. that bad, but you get the point.) I feel like if this were to happen IRL, almost everyone's reaction would be like "aww" or "that's hot."

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EII; E6(w5)

i am flakey

calenwen

Oh, sorry. My second comment had nothing to do with what you said, but rather was something that happened to a friend of mine. I guess the whole theme of "guy being assertive and girl going along with it" reminded me of that incident.

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Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
John Muir

FDG

I think that the bad part in Sirena's story could be that she said no, then he proceeded nonetheless; whereas, just proceeding without asking would have been felt as less of a violation.

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ENTj 7w8

Cyclops

Something like, .. Would you like an extra shot with your American-o?

How'd you like your coffee? Straight and strong please.

BulletsAndDoves

You know both perceptions are true. We need the asshole that chokes the sensitive faggotry right out of us and spits in our worthless whore faces. And you also need the sensitive gay male-ish guy that shares your womanly politically correction on how we should all just get along and that we're just all one big happy family.

Please stop debating which one is better or worse. It's not about that. You need both.

Gender differences exist and the general stereotypes about everything ALWAYS holds true, but they are natural and more subtle than people realize. So don't get insecure over them OK?

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, IEI/INFp, 6w5

Cyclops

Hmm..you're such a fine specimen of manhood b&d. So...dominant

dinki

LMAO at this thread.

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IEI-Fe, sx/sp 4w3.

Creepy-Mimosa Pudica

I like the way Betas touch. IEIs and SLEs in particular. It's not necessarily "hard", it can be very gentle, too, but it's more fluent and more passionate than, say, sweeter and more careful Alphas. I agree with the descriptions here and these other places, too.

Hell, no! I'd have told him to fuck off and never come back. I mean, to assume that I "need" anyone!! I can take care of myself, thank you very much. The SLEs I've dated were never anything like that, though.

I agree with you.

But I think I get Sirena, too, as it's ok to kiss if you KNOW the "no" was not really meant. However, if the "no" WAS meant, then I'd get very angry and disrespect the guy.... I'm difficult, I know.

Yes, exactly.

Have some more popcorn:

jewels

If you know the "no" was not really meant? And how can you prove that? I'm sure many rapists have been like "yeah the no totally wasn't meant." Do you know that they will still convict those guys? Is that a fair thing to do? The problem is girls really do have the power to change their minds and say it was rape, and if you said "no" there is a good chance he'll get convicted. It's a dangerous word to play around with.

Also, if it really was rape and you were in a habit of telling the guy "no" in a teasing way, then it's even harder to prove it was rape.

It seems like a bad situation to put yourself in to not be clear, also an unfair situation to put a guy in too. You might think you're on the same page w/ a guy only to find out you aren't.

I'd say there are other ways to be coy, and with the laws being what they are, best to keep the "yes" and "no" words separate.

I mean, people are free to do whatever they think is hot in private, but it's not fair to guys or girls to promote the idea that you can tease a guy w/ the word "no" just because you find it hot. That's just a really bad idea.

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Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

glamourama

jewels, that's like the worst case scenario though!

redbaron

Sirena, I totally get the turn-on of that scenario.

and, jewels, he didn't rape her, he kissed her. and she liked it. so no one's saying it's okay to say no and then be raped. he probably could tell that she was simply a little bit unsure rather than extremely opposed. SLEs aren't THAT dumb. lol (usually)

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IEI
4w5 sp/sx
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