jxrtes

In comic books there isn't always a great deal of consistency, so I did my best and tried to visualize each character as an archetype or something. I looked for the most compelling characterizations: The Killing Joke, The Dark Knight, etc. > everything else. I'm not basing any of these typings on the craptastic Tim Burton films.


ISTj- Batman

ISTj- Commissioner Gordon
(identity w/ Batman)

ENFj- Ras Al Ghul
(wants Batman to become his heir. His vision for a better, more ordered world complements Batman's desire. Duality. However, Batman must oppose him for pursuing radical, sometimes genocidal solutions. Frequent megalomania and temper tantrums.)

ESTp- Catwoman
(aggressor; fierce friendly rivalry; strong ideological convictions; mirror w/ Batman)

ISFj- Alfred Pennyworth
(Batman's conscience / Role function)

ESTj- Two Face
(was the incorruptible, law abiding district attorney of Gotham before the tragedy that turned him half-evil).

INFp- The Scarecrow
(uses people's deepest fears as a weapon against them. fascinated by the pathology of phobias)

INTj- The Riddler
(in modern adaptations, he tends to be somewhat sophisticated, insular, lacking in force and with suggestive Fe. Batman's intellectual sparring partner, look-alike.)

ESFj- Poison Ivy
(deadly mix of seduction and assertiveness; acts like a big sister to Harley Quinn.)

ENTj- Mr. Freeze
(tragic and compelling character whose sole motivation is revenge against the world that wronged him. Schwarzeneger should be impaled on an icicle for debauching him.)

INFj- The Penguin
(meticulously adheres to arcane imperatives of social behaviour, fancying himself a "gentleman" of crime. Polite, sophisticated and extremely well spoken, though eschewing any colorful charisma, and having little force behind his actions.)

ISFp- Harley Quinn
(Joker's therapist whom he seduced into becoming his side kick. Only an ISFp can make spousal abuse seem cute. )

- The Joker
(represents Batman's shadow, the deepest and most repressed part of his psyche. Batman's greatest rival. No other villain comes close to successfully questioning the validity of Batman's philosophical assumptions about justice, tempting him to sacrifice his morals just to stop him.

The Joker is volatile and entirely unpredictable. He doesn't care about power, wealth, or even himself. He is the embodiment of chaos: internal, external, intellectual, you name it, which is the exact opposite of ego.

Seen as a force of nature rather than a real person, which is often how someone sees their PoLR.)


Robin- who cares?

__________________

somavision

No expert on the batman comics and I don't know how correct you are, I do like your analysis though, especially regarding the joker.

ArchonAlarion

Ni/Se seems pretty discordant imo, but I guess I can see where an Ne polr would feel that Ne was chaotic, mocking, slippery, and ruinous.

__________________
N ILE
5 so/sx

Krig the Viking

Dude, I think you've nailed these types. I agree with all of them, which is rare!

On Two-Face: Could the coin-flipping be a sign of weak, valued Ne and Fi? He uses the coin to choose when he is faced with conflicting ethical possibilities -- in other words, the coin takes the place of his dual (poorly). On practical TeSi matters (how to execute the decisions he's made with his coin) he trusts his own judgement.

__________________
Quaero Veritas.

jxrtes

That sounds excellent. I was having trouble explaining the coin thing. I considered that he might be a Ti or Fi dominant who's base function completely broke down, and that his pathology made him rely on an external source for his judgment. Bleh!

But your explanation works better socionically, since he only consults the coin after he sets up the context using his extroverted function .

__________________

jxrtes

Yeah, types do tend to see things as a gestalt of relativism, BUT they gravitate towards intellectual certainty. Ne isn't like that at all.

Joker criticizes people's faith in society at a fundamental, conceptual level. And what he criticizes is specifically the false-certainty related to Ni:


Note: this type of certainty isn't the same as ideological certainty.

His saying that he turns the plan on its head, ie. finding loop-holes to exploit, is something any creative Ti can relate to. I haven't read enough to be sure which is the more consistent characterization: ENTp or ENFp, so I'll leave it at that.

Some ENTPs do self-type as 6s, so I guess the joker would probably have to be C-ENxP in DCNH.

Don't forget Jack Napier is a total psychopath, which might have twisted his TIM into something unrecognizable, and beyond any hope of redemption,

-he tortured and killed Robin,
-made Batgirl into a paraplegic,
-killed Commissioner Gordon's wife,
-estimates that he's killed thousands of people,
-at one point he regained his sanity, only to lose it again from the memories of all the people he's killed.

so he could really be an ISFj for all we know.

__________________

ArchonAlarion

Okay, I get you know.

Intuition itself is sorta chaotic anyways. Hmm, yes, ideas my precious.

__________________
N ILE
5 so/sx

Marie84

I don't really know much about Batman outside of the last 2 films, but I agree that Batman is LSI (though I've heard ESI suggested) and The Joker is ILE-ish.
Gordon in the films seemed ILI-ish
Not sure about the rest...

__________________
EII INFj
9w1

jxrtes

The Joker's sense of humor is pretty ENTp. When he's well written his psychopathic jokes are only funny to him, which is ENTp in and of itself.

Besides, the Joker doesn't just challenge Batman physically. He challenges him philosophically, pulling his premises out from under him. He shows Batman time and again that most of Gotham isn't worth protecting; that it's full of corruptible people. Even Batman's one man ideological crusade is futile because the people will turn against him in a heart beat when it becomes convenient for them. Smells more like supervision.

__________________

Logos

Why is this in Alpha?

__________________
Johari Box

Vero

I ask myself this same question. Unless someone can give me a good reason why it belongs here, I'm going to move it for order's sake.

__________________
ILE
7w☼ so/sp
7-8-3

Kiss me
Lick your cigarette, then kiss me
Kiss me where your eye won't meet me
Meet me where your eye won't lick me
Lick your mind and mine so briefly
Oh you know, you know you're so sweetly
Oh you know, you know that I know that I love you
I mean I, I mean I need to love...

Absurd

They are all Alpha, that's why.

__________________

jxrtes

Why so serious?

__________________

Vero

I'm just trying to keep things where they belong. This really isn't related to alpha other than the fact that you have a couple characters typed as alphas.

Is there an actual reason to keep it in Alpha?

__________________
ILE
7w☼ so/sp
7-8-3

Kiss me
Lick your cigarette, then kiss me
Kiss me where your eye won't meet me
Meet me where your eye won't lick me
Lick your mind and mine so briefly
Oh you know, you know you're so sweetly
Oh you know, you know that I know that I love you
I mean I, I mean I need to love...

labcoat

Batman strikes me as Serious (Te/Fi values). His motives (revenge for his childhood, eradication of crime) are Te/Fi, too. I might be seen calling him ISFj instead.

__________________
INTj

General disclaimer: my theoretical writings tend to be highly experimental in nature. I recommend only using them as indications as to what to look for and not to accept them as truths until backed up by ample supportive experience on your own part.

jxrtes

His desire to eradicate crime stems directly from his experience as a child. He doesn't want anyone to go through the same experience he went through, which is an ideological rather than personal motivation.

In Batman Begins, he was going to take revenge on the man who killed his parents, by killing him, but decided against it at the last moment.

He has a merry/beta persona as Bruce Wayne, but has a no-nonsense personality as Batman in order to strike terror into the hearts of his opponents.

Chameleonism is also more of an Fe trait in general, I'd think.

He chose to be a social outcast, which is a common theme in Ti egos and not common for serious quadras.

__________________

incognito

The most recent versions of the character Batman have not been entirely consistent (ex. Batman/Wayne 1989 compared to Batman/Wayne 2008 - Dark Night). So, I don't really think anyone can accurately pinpoint his 'type'. Earlier versions of the character Batman (circa '60's-'70's) I would guess as base, probably ISFj.

Logos

Should I not be?

__________________
Johari Box

labcoat

Even the way you put it it sounds very personal. From a Ti type's perspective, seeing a bunch of statistics on crime is as good a motivation to become a crime fighter as a negative personal experience is. The childhood issue is the backbone of all of batman's motives. To an ISTj it would just be a detail. A trivialty.

Mercy: strong F functions... Not in any way incompatible with ISFj and a terrible argument for ISTj. You don't honestly think they are paragons of mercy, do you?

The Bruce Wayne persona was mostly based around social activity. Again this fits ISFj perfectly and ISTj less so.

No idea what you're refering to with any of this.

Now let me make my argument for ISFj and against ISTj: an ISTj would counter crime using governmental institutions. Batman on the other hand, tackles the crime on individual terms. He makes his contribution to the fight on crime using the resources he has available to him. There is not a shred of collectivism or political lobbying involved in his methods. All of the materials available on quadra characteristics agree that Batman's methods are of the individualist Gamma flavor rather than of the collectivist Beta flavor.

__________________
INTj

General disclaimer: my theoretical writings tend to be highly experimental in nature. I recommend only using them as indications as to what to look for and not to accept them as truths until backed up by ample supportive experience on your own part.

jxrtes

I don't know about that. I think you're underestimating the impact a negative personal experience can have. I don't think anyone would treat the murder of their parents as a triviality akin to some statistic.

I guess an Alpha NT (who sees the big picture) might be inclined to, but then the subconscious Fe will do the trick and hit them with the full weight of the tragedy, like what happened to Einstein.

In my understanding, which I gleaned from Expat, Gamma quadra is completely unlikely to show mercy to someone who has wronged them personally.

I don't know about that. I've read the interpretation that Bruce Wayne is just a character he portrays, and that Batman is who he really thinks of himself as being.

Bruce Wayne pretends to be a spoiled rich boy -- who indulges in gross debauchery -- as an act to throw people off Batman's secret identity. I suppose this begs the question of whether he's pretending to be in his own quadra.

Changing one's social role, wearing social masks, being a social chameleon. All of that is more Fe valuing and not so much Fi base.

I thought he couldn't politically lobby people because Gotham is a corruption infested hell hole. Aren't betas supposed to be the revolutionary ones that take things into their own hands?

Also wouldn't someone from a serious quadra (Especially someone with suggestive ) be more likely to counter crime by going to the available government institutions?

__________________